'Acceptable' Munching

[Baege]

Hey guys,

I've just been wondering for the past week or so what everyone considers to be 'acceptable' amounts of FoF munches. Due to the nature of FoF procs with orb and Frostbolt impact during Water Jet, I've been letting myself get away with 7-10 munches, but I feel like I'm going easy on myself with that number. Obviously zero is near-unattainable, but 10 still feels like a lot of improvement is needed and I'm consciously working on getting that number closer to 5. Can any of you higher-tier mages outline where you let yourself fall?

[Wilderness]

Obviously zero is near-unattainable

Umm, that's not true at all. Obviously no one is perfect and the occasional proc might get munched but that should be uncommon. 7-10 is WAY too many. Look at the top frost logs on pretty much any fight - you'll see that they have as many IL's cast as they do FoF procs. There's not much of a reason to munch any procs, and certainly not from Water Jet.

[Baege]

Obviously zero is near-unattainable

Umm, that's not true at all. Obviously no one is perfect and the occasional proc might get munched but that should be uncommon. 7-10 is WAY too many. Look at the top frost logs on pretty much any fight - you'll see that they have as many IL's cast as they do FoF procs. There's not much of a reason to munch any procs, and certainly not from Water Jet.

I guess I'm not understanding how to properly water jet then. If I'm running into Butcher, cast an IFed frostbolt into water jet, spell-queue for the second frostbolt and then end up with 2 FoF procs (water jet + frostbolt impact), firing the third at melee-range, how would I avoid munching a third? I obviously spell-queue the ice lance, but it might not fire before the FB impact. Similarly, if I delay the second frostbolt to consume one stack of ice lance, I risk losing the second FoF from water jet, no?

[Komma]

I'd guess that "acceptable munching" is somewhere <5% on single target. Threshold is higher on multitarget because of Frozen Orb causing unavoidable munching. Prismatic Crystal and Frost Bomb can also cause unavoidable munching. The top logs cast as many Ice lances as FoFs, but occasionally you'll see 1 or 2 that actually aren't FoF.

[Cufflink]

I guess I'm not understanding how to properly water jet then. If I'm running into Butcher, cast an IFed frostbolt into water jet, spell-queue for the second frostbolt and then end up with 2 FoF procs (water jet + frostbolt impact), firing the third at melee-range, how would I avoid munching a third? I obviously spell-queue the ice lance, but it might not fire before the FB impact. Similarly, if I delay the second frostbolt to consume one stack of ice lance, I risk losing the second FoF from water jet, no?

How are you using Water Jet? You should use Water Jet when you have no FoF procs and it should net you two FoF procs. Most of the time that's that: you start off with no FoF procs and end up with two without a third FoF to even potentially munch.

Occasionally you'll proc an extra FoF during Water Jet, but unless you're in melee range, you have plenty of time to cast Ice Lance before your second Frostbolt hits. The sequence of events looks something like...

1. Start 1st Frostbolt
2. Start Water Jet
3. 1st Frostbolt launched
4. Start 2nd Frostbolt
5. 1st Frostbolt hits
6. 2nd Frostbolt launched
7. Ice Lance
8. Water Jet ends
9. 2nd Frostbolt hits
10. Ice Lance

In this sequence, you only have one active FoF proc ever during Water Jet. If this feels impossible to you, something must be off about your timing or positioning, e.g., you're casting the first Frostbolt too early or too late, you're too close to whatever you're attacking, you're using Water Jet while Frozen Orb is ticking or FoF is already up, etc.

But like I said, even if you're hugging the boss, Water Jet will take you from 0 stacks of FoF to 2. You might munch one in that scenario if you proc an extra one during Water Jet, but I'd say that happens ~15% of the time.

[Baege]

I guess I'm not understanding how to properly water jet then. If I'm running into Butcher, cast an IFed frostbolt into water jet, spell-queue for the second frostbolt and then end up with 2 FoF procs (water jet + frostbolt impact), firing the third at melee-range, how would I avoid munching a third? I obviously spell-queue the ice lance, but it might not fire before the FB impact. Similarly, if I delay the second frostbolt to consume one stack of ice lance, I risk losing the second FoF from water jet, no?

How are you using Water Jet? You should use Water Jet when you have no FoF procs and it should net you two FoF procs. Most of the time that's that: you start off with no FoF procs and end up with two without a third FoF to even potentially munch.

Occasionally you'll proc an extra FoF during Water Jet, but unless you're in melee range, you have plenty of time to cast Ice Lance before your second Frostbolt hits. The sequence of events looks something like...

1. Start 1st Frostbolt
2. Start Water Jet
3. 1st Frostbolt launched
4. Start 2nd Frostbolt
5. 1st Frostbolt hits
6. 2nd Frostbolt launched
7. Ice Lance
8. Water Jet ends
9. 2nd Frostbolt hits
10. Ice Lance

In this sequence, you only have one active FoF proc ever during Water Jet. If this feels impossible to you, something must be off about your timing or positioning, e.g., you're casting the first Frostbolt too early or too late, you're too close to whatever you're attacking, you're using Water Jet while Frozen Orb is ticking or FoF is already up, etc.

But like I said, even if you're hugging the boss, Water Jet will take you from 0 stacks of FoF to 2. You might munch one in that scenario if you proc an extra one during Water Jet, but I'd say that happens ~15% of the time.

That's essentially what I'm doing, so I guess i'll try delaying water jet until around 70% of the frostbolt cast - currently I'm hitting it at around 50%.

I'd guess that "acceptable munching" is somewhere <5% on single target. Threshold is higher on multitarget because of Frozen Orb causing unavoidable munching. Prismatic Crystal and Frost Bomb can also cause unavoidable munching. The top logs cast as many Ice lances as FoFs, but occasionally you'll see 1 or 2 that actually aren't FoF.

Thanks Komma, that's more towards what I was looking for.

[Mumrit]

Munching is going to happen. Komma's comment is pretty much what I'd consider acceptable.

Simple scenario that produces unavoidable munching during a waterjet
1.) frostbolt begin
2.) waterjet begin
3.) frostbolt hits and gains one from waterjet (+1)
4.) frostbolt begins
5.) Frostbolt hits in waterjet (+2), also procs it's own (+3 munched)

[Cufflink]

Munching is going to happen. Komma's comment is pretty much what I'd consider acceptable.

Simple scenario that produces unavoidable munching during a waterjet
1.) frostbolt begin
2.) waterjet begin
3.) frostbolt hits and gains one from waterjet (+1)
4.) frostbolt begins
5.) Frostbolt hits in waterjet (+2), also procs it's own (+3 munched)

Sure. That's why you dump your first FoF stack from Water Jet before your second Frostbolt lands. Unless you're in melee range, you have like ~1.5x of a GCD between your second Frostbolt being cast and it landing during Water Jet.

It's really just a reflex for me. Unless I'm in a more specific situation or part of my rotation, I start spamming my Ice Lance keybind as soon as I see the FoF visual effect. If anything, this creates the opposite problem where I accidentally cast an Ice Lance without a stack of FoF.

I'm not a super pro, but outside Frozen Orb where you can't control the rate of FoF procs, I haven't had a problem with munching FoF stacks.

[Mumrit]

Sure. That's why you dump your first FoF stack from Water Jet before your second Frostbolt lands. Unless you're in melee range, you have like ~1.5x of a GCD between your second Frostbolt being cast and it landing during Water Jet.

Unfortunately it doesn't work quite that way, in melee or outside of it. The effect of WJ is reduced by haste in direct proportion to your FB. Introducing an extra global between your FB casts will prevent your second FB from contacting the mob/boss/dummy before WJ ends.

Remember, FoF charges aren't granted until your FB hits the target with WJ on it. IL immediately after your first FB will not only result in you missing out on the second charge, it'll also cause you to cast a non FoF IL.

[Sturmcantor]

You cast (Jet) FB > FB > FoF IL. The FoF IL will hit before the FB does, resulting in no munched FoFs.

[Mumrit]

You cast (Jet) FB > FB > FoF IL. The FoF IL will hit before the FB does, resulting in no munched FoFs.

I misunderstood what you were saying above. I apologize

In my above example it becomes:
1.) frostbolt begin
2.) waterjet begin
3.) frostbolt hits and gains one from waterjet (+1)
4.) frostbolt begins
5.) Frostbolt finishes, IL (+0)
6.) Frostbolt hits in waterjet (+1), also procs it's own (+2)

There is a necessary yardage to allow for the travel time. I'll have to test what it is, but in a standard environment most people will be fine with the above sequence.

[Cufflink]

Sure. That's why you dump your first FoF stack from Water Jet before your second Frostbolt lands. Unless you're in melee range, you have like ~1.5x of a GCD between your second Frostbolt being cast and it landing during Water Jet.

Unfortunately it doesn't work quite that way, in melee or outside of it. The effect of WJ is reduced by haste in direct proportion to your FB. Introducing an extra global between your FB casts will prevent your second FB from contacting the mob/boss/dummy before WJ ends.

Remember, FoF charges aren't granted until your FB hits the target with WJ on it. IL immediately after your first FB will not only result in you missing out on the second charge, it'll also cause you to cast a non FoF IL.

Using the nomenclature from my first comment, "cast" means the end of the cast and not the start. There's about a 1.5x GCD between the Frostbolt leaving my fingertips and it hitting whatever I'm targeting, proccing FoF in the process. Because I spend the first stack of FoF before it lands (which is when I generate the second stack), I never have more than one unless I get an extra proc somewhere. Regardless: zero munching.

[Mumrit]

Yeah. I was thinking you meant, in the sequence, FB -> IL -> FB -> IL IL and I rushed to be all, "No, don't do that! Please!" thereby misinterpreting what you said entirely. Again, I apologize.

[Dutchmagoz]

I don't really see how you could munch any procs at all as frost unless you're banking procs for a certain add or something. You should never start water jet when you have a stack of Fof or brain freeze.

EDIT: As frosted pointed out on irc, you can technically munch during water jet, but the chance of it happening is extremely low, nor is it stoppable or a dps loss.

[oomy]

You cast (Jet) FB > FB > FoF IL. The FoF IL will hit before the FB does, resulting in no munched FoFs.

I misunderstood what you were saying above. I apologize

In my above example it becomes:
1.) frostbolt begin
2.) waterjet begin
3.) frostbolt hits and gains one from waterjet (+1)
4.) frostbolt begins
5.) Frostbolt finishes, IL (+0)
6.) Frostbolt hits in waterjet (+1), also procs it's own (+2)

There is a necessary yardage to allow for the travel time. I'll have to test what it is, but in a standard environment most people will be fine with the above sequence.

Uhh, kind of confused at what your trying to state. FOF procs from when your frostbolt occurs, the moment you've cast, not on the moment of impact. So if anything you'd munch if you gained +2 from the initial frostbolt cast not the second.

[Mumrit]

You cast (Jet) FB > FB > FoF IL. The FoF IL will hit before the FB does, resulting in no munched FoFs.

I misunderstood what you were saying above. I apologize

In my above example it becomes:
1.) frostbolt begin
2.) waterjet begin
3.) frostbolt hits and gains one from waterjet (+1)
4.) frostbolt begins
5.) Frostbolt finishes, IL (+0)
6.) Frostbolt hits in waterjet (+1), also procs it's own (+2)

There is a necessary yardage to allow for the travel time. I'll have to test what it is, but in a standard environment most people will be fine with the above sequence.

Uhh, kind of confused at what your trying to state. FOF procs from when your frostbolt occurs, the moment you've cast, not on the moment of impact. So if anything you'd munch if you gained +2 from the initial frostbolt cast not the second.

FoF from Waterjet are at the moment of impact, but yes, FoF procs from FB casts are granted at cast completion. The FoF-IL expended in step 5 was from a WJ, not a native proc.

I was just trying to show the sequence of it, but for the cast of being a stickler:

5.) Frostbolt finishes cast, procs on it's own (+2), FoF-IL (+1)
6.) Frostbolt hits in waterjet (+2)

[Cufflink]

Yeah. I was thinking you meant, in the sequence, FB -> IL -> FB -> IL IL and I rushed to be all, "No, don't do that! Please!" thereby misinterpreting what you said entirely. Again, I apologize.

No worries! I think you replied to someone else the first time around thinking it was me, but I only replied to you once.

[velvetx]

I just have a quick question how do you figure out if your ignites are getting munched in the logs without going through the detailed breakout?

Logs below on Mythic Kargath Kill

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/vbxr ... 238&e=4838" target="_blank

[Komma]

I just have a quick question how do you figure out if your ignites are getting munched in the logs without going through the detailed breakout?

This isn't the right thread to discuss this topic, but ignite munching no longer exists in game.

[velvetx]

Sorry I am an idiot I meant Finger of Frost procs.

Thank you.