Mythic Mannoroth: Arcane vs Frost

[Kirielle]

Moderator note: Moved to Q&A

Any mages with experience on this fight want to throw in their thoughts? We are actually having a bit of an issue pushing the first phase before the fourth doomlord. I've been playing as frost in gear that's mostly still gemmed/enchanted for arcane; debating whether I should just go back to arcane or optimize my gear for frost. Just not sure whether arcane's stronger single target is enough to beat the free cleave from frost while burning adds. Imps are a total non-issue so not relevant to which spec I choose.

[Laodi]

I'll just post a link to a thread in the mmo-forum where this was discussed.
Mythic Manno; Arcane vs Frost
I hope you find an answer you like.

[Wilderness]

You can go either way with pros and cons to each. I personally think Arcane is the better spec for progression on the boss. I answered in the linked MMOC thread as well, but my reasoning is a combination of SN for imps and good single-target damage throughout the fight especially in the last phase. As Arcane, assuming you use PoF, your overall damage will vary between pulls if you happen to get procs around imps/infernals but that damage is mostly irrelevant. Nice when it happens but doesn't have a big impact matter when it doesn't. You've got nice burst for the doom lords if needed (we used the ring throughout the fight to hit one each time so they didn't need as much focus overall). And the shorter you can make that last phase the better off you'll be. Imps might be blowing up easily now early in progression, but when you get into later stages of the fight and people are out for wrath and there's more stuff going on then that extra interrupt from SN can prove useful.

Frost will generally do more consistent overall damage throughout the fight, I just think the benefits of Arcane outweigh that. I don't think that optimizing your gear for Frost will make a huge difference if your raid is having trouble pushing before the 4th doom lord though. But if you decide you do want to play Frost for Mannoroth its not a bad idea since you're going to want to play Frost on Archimonde so might as well optimize. Good luck.

[Kirielle]

Yeah I think you and Hybrid had about the only useful answers in that MMOC thread.

Notes from playing frost on the encounter: waterjet is awkward since positioning to where you can waterjet/frostbolt the boss, icelance infernals, and still be positioned correctly for imp/felseeker spawns is difficult. I tried orbing every imp set which necessitates running UM and blizzarding every imp pack to reduce orb CD. It's likely that time spent blizzarding offset the extra FoF I gained though, so I ended up switching to IN.

I'm a bit worried about running out of Ice Floes as arcane; I'm assuming SN/AO is the spec to be, which means I still need to position correctly to get my orb to hit as many targets as possible. Any other arcane pointers for the fight?

[Wilderness]

Yeah I think you and Hybrid had about the only useful answers in that MMOC thread.

Notes from playing frost on the encounter: waterjet is awkward since positioning to where you can waterjet/frostbolt the boss, icelance infernals, and still be positioned correctly for imp/felseeker spawns is difficult. I tried orbing every imp set which necessitates running UM and blizzarding every imp pack to reduce orb CD. It's likely that time spent blizzarding offset the extra FoF I gained though, so I ended up switching to IN.

I'm a bit worried about running out of Ice Floes as arcane; I'm assuming SN/AO is the spec to be, which means I still need to position correctly to get my orb to hit as many targets as possible. Any other arcane pointers for the fight?

You do run out of IF at times as Arcane, or at least I know I did. It gets better as you become more familiar with the fight, but you are less mobile as Arcane and the fight strat means moving around a lot. I didn't find it too bad between double blink and IF, but I definitely ran out of charges occasionally. You don't have a lot of control over your positioning so you can't do a lot regarding hitting as many targets besides aiming carefully. For our strat we tanked him against a pillar and the middle of the room was our stack point for the felseeker - I found out it was far enough away that if I used AO out there it wasn't going to hit him before it despawned.

I did a bunch of pulls with OP rather than AO, but I ultimately switched back. OP would definitely be better in the last phase, but I liked the consistency of AO and lining up AP with the ring each time. With OP I found things were getting out of wack sometimes, and if I cut off my burns with OP to keep things in line then I felt that diminished the whole point of using it.

AO is kind of weird on that fight, or maybe its just a hitbox issue or something. There were times I know I went through his side and a few infernals and I'd get a couple stacks but that was it, whereas other times in similar situations I'd go right to 4 stacks and 2-3 AMs. I don't know how to describe it, but it seemed like it didn't always hit everything it looked like it was supposed to.

[Curnivore]

AO appears to generally have a tiny hitbox around it making it quite hectic in several cases.

[Kirielle]

So, my damage as arcane was terrible on this fight. I've played arcane orb on Xhul and managed to do pretty well, but I struggle on this boss. Was wondering if you fine folks might take a look at my logs and give me some pointers...

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pLQm83CMfX4vDakq

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6YpDcWLj1CmyKGMN

[Rinoa]

The first thing that stands out to me is that you're not using a nova talent. Why not? It's absolutely amazing on Mannoroth since you can use every charge into a bunch of imps all fight long, barring the very first which you use on the boss within the first 5 seconds.

[Kirielle]

I was using Supernova, but apparently the knockup interacts poorly with Dragon Roar (which admittedly should not have been used since warriors were supposed to have Shockwave) and Chaos Wave (somehow knockup was causing Chaos Wave not to hit all of them?). I kept Supernova but didn't use it on imps in most cases until second phase. In any case, it's not my imp damage I'm concerned about, but my boss / infernal damage, which is generally abysmally low.

[Rinoa]

Supernova should be completely fine. Just save up 2 stacks and use them right after they get mass gripped. Imp waves come at 50 second intervals which fits perfectly with 2x nova cooldowns. Don't be late though, or you're screwed on one nova charge for a wave.

[Wilderness]

You should take whatever nova talent you have, whether that's SN or IN, and I wouldn't worry about people complaining about the knockback (as long as you don't hit SN while they imps are being gripped in - that WILL stop them from being pulled in. And certainly cause a wipe. Err, so I heard). Your damage on the imps will matter in the last phase. There's enough going on that not everyone is going to be able to maximize their damage on them. The first couple phases of the fight for imps its mostly just making sure people stack enough that they can be gripped and then they die. Its not that easy in the last phase. I know I said that earlier in this thread, but it bears repeating.

It looks like you're switching targets a lot and trying to kill infernals. If you are either wanting to switch to them, or being told to, then Frost is not going to be a good choice for the fight. You won't be able to use WJ effectively at all if you're constantly switching targets like that. If infernal damage is a concern then play Arcane. Frost is good on this fight because you basically just focus on Mannoroth, the occasional doom lord, and let your cleave do its work. If you're not doing that, its not effective. Its also going to be worse in P3 than Arcane and the faster you kill it in P3 the easier it will be. I only looked at a couple of the longer pulls, but based on what I saw you doing you should play Arcane rather than Frost.

[Kirielle]

To be clear, for the majority of these attempts I have a Nova talent, whether I'm playing Frost or Arcane; I simply don't use it on imps in the first phase because my raid leader instructed me not to. Again though it's really not my imp damage I'm concerned about; it's how terrible my boss/infernal damage is when I'm playing arcane. Frost on heavy target switching is annoying managing waterjet and I would be better served playing arcane... *IF* I could play it correctly, which apparently I'm not. This is the first time I've had significant difficulty performing as arcane, hence why I'm here looking for constructive criticism.

Couple of specific questions for arcane orb gameplay: given how often multiple targets are up, do you hard burn as normal, shallow burn, or simply don't really burn at all? Also, do you generally always barrage before orbing, or would you orb during a burn if there are multiple targets up?

[Rinoa]

Always is a strong word, but in nearly every case you barrage before orbing on multiple targets. Some exceptions may be if you have Mark of Doom up in a cleave/AoE situation and you need missiles. If you're at some range then you might Arcane Orb first, then Arcane Barrage while the orb is flying towards the targets. This is just to fill the GCD the travel time eats up with some really good mana efficient damage while fishing for Arcane Missiles to put into Mark of Doom.

[Raggamasta]

Does IN have the same problem as SN has with Deathgrip? We currently only have 1 DK in our raidteam and sometimes his grip becomes available 2-3 sec after the imps have spawned. Which ofc causes problems if I use AE, AE, SN, SN when imps spawn. Also SN seems to knock them back which is really bad for every even imp wave (2, 4, etc) where we don't have a deathgrip.

Also what's the best frost AoE rotation for imps? I imagine something like: FO, IN, IN and Blizzard after that to reduce FO cooldown for the next imp wave.

[Wilderness]

IN doesn't have a knock-up, so it won't affect them being gripped in. But if they are spread out it may not be worth it to use your nova until they are gripped together. SN is just a knock UP not a knock BACK so I'm not sure how its causing problems when you use them on the waves you don't have deathgrip.

As Frost what you mentioned is probably the best way to do it if you're focused on imp damage. I'd think that AE, SN, and double barrage (with AO) onto the imps would probably be better burst damage than going Frost, though that's just a guess.

[skiz]

IN doesn't have a knock-up, so it won't affect them being gripped in. But if they are spread out it may not be worth it to use your nova until they are gripped together. SN is just a knock UP not a knock BACK so I'm not sure how its causing problems when you use them on the waves you don't have deathgrip.

As Frost what you mentioned is probably the best way to do it if you're focused on imp damage. I'd think that AE, SN, and double barrage (with AO) onto the imps would probably be better burst damage than going Frost, though that's just a guess.

Root > Grip. Stun & knockup during Grip > grip. Endless possibilities to wipe the raid. Blast wave may be the safe option.

I actually struggle taking iceblock glyph as frost on it. Blink glyph feels mandatory, Icelance cleave, too. Glyph of IV is just decent on non multistrike builds. But I guess IV glyph has to go away for iceblock. This aint really a problem for Arcane: I guess blink, CoC / Arcane Explosion, Ice block wins?

[Kirielle]

Glyph choices are awful as frost. As Arcane I get to run all the utility glyphs; glyph of ice block, rapid displacement, and remove curse (I'm the specified decurser). As Frost I only get to choose one utility glyph since IV and Splitting Ice are mandatory. Currently I'm making do without rapid displacement in order to get extra wrath soak time.

I went back to frost and worked on my positioning in order to always be able to full waterjet on boss while still maintaining reasonable dps on infernals and it seems to be going okay. Still frustrated with my inability to make arcane work, but since I'm managing well enough as frost I guess I won't get the chance to fix that until after Archie is dead.

You cannot Ice Nova before Imps are gripped, as the root prevents them from being gripped. I don't think knockups such as Supernova prevent grip, but any knockback abilities such as dragon roar will be exacerbated if they are cast while imps are knocked up.