[M] Archimonde - Mages are doing bad for their gear?

[Aheon]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xqPQjhWXc1wtrV3J" target="_blank

Pretty much looking for just any outside insight to why all four mages are possibly low on over all DPS for their gear level? Blaming 'RNG nova' isn't really a constant answer to bring to the raid leader.

[Zelus]

It's a high movement fight. Arcane struggles in these kinds of encounters. Constantly switching targets and watching out for mechanics can be lowering it too. I was experiencing the same thing as arcane. Phase 3 murders your dps from all the movement. When I switched to playing fire on archimonde it went a lot better. I had some pulls where I was doing 200k+ dps going into the final phase because I was able to constantly cleave adds and burst really hard with ring. Also, being able to use scorch during seething corruption to at least keep some damage and pyros going helps the dps a lot.

Also, specifically looking at the logs of your mages. It seems like they aren't comfortable with how the fight works and knowing when there are opportunities for damage. One Mage used his PC 3 times. But didn't line them up with the ring which is a big boost to the raid with 795 rings. Another Mage only used PC 1 time for the entire encounter. Another Mage appeared to spam too many missiles into the crystal and lost over damage in the burn phase. And the final Mage died super early.

[Curnivore]

The RNG nova is not a meme. Are you looking at the top logs only? Notice they usually have a contribution of at least ~20% from it, when others might have a contribution of around 8% usually. That can mean a difference of around 20K more, which can put them on top, at least in their raid team.

[skiz]

But didn't like them up with the ring which is a big boost to the raid with 795 rings.

can't resist to underLINE your post. Made me laugh. Apart from that I do like your answer.

[Rabona]

Any reason why your mages are playing with UM over SN? I think it's a bit of a no brainer on progression with all those relatively tight timings on doomfires and infernals.

[Zelus]

Any reason why your mages are playing with UM over SN? I think it's a bit of a no brainer on progression with all those relatively tight timings on doomfires and infernals.

Ideally with gear increases and what not, the most effective strat for downing archi is the 1 doomfire strat. Lusting on pull and blowing all the damage you can. UM performs higher in this scenario and allows for more AB spam. Typically from my experience. My doom nova proc on pull decimates the doomfire and the ring takes out the tank add. Lots of other classes like shaman, fire Mage, Warriors, do tons of cleave damage which should allow the mages to focus on single target damage and pushing archi. So it really depends on composition. Adds aren't that big of a deal on archi. Phasing him before the group wipes is more important. So things to consider.

[Wilderness]

Ideally with gear increases and what not, the most effective strat for downing archi is the 1 doomfire strat. Lusting on pull and blowing all the damage you can. UM performs higher in this scenario and allows for more AB spam. Typically from my experience. My doom nova proc on pull decimates the doomfire and the ring takes out the tank add. Lots of other classes like shaman, fire Mage, Warriors, do tons of cleave damage which should allow the mages to focus on single target damage and pushing archi. So it really depends on composition. Adds aren't that big of a deal on archi. Phasing him before the group wipes is more important. So things to consider.

Pushing 1 doomfire being the most effective strat is entirely debatable, but not really relevant here since this guild isn't lusting on the pull and attempting it. I agree with Rabona that SN is a better choice for progression, particularly with their strat. Even in that strat, SN on the adds in the final phase is useful, as all the adds there are a big deal during progression.

Still, their mages aren't really timing or using their CDs very well, and aren't spending enough time active during the fight, both of which have a far bigger impact than UM or SN.

[Aheon]

Would it be too much for you to Private message me which mages in particular are suffering from this the most? Active up time, their CD management. I went through the logs and found some issues, but second opinions are always welcome.

[skiz]

Would it be too much for you to Private message me which mages in particular are suffering from this the most? Active up time, their CD management. I went through the logs and found some issues, but second opinions are always welcome.

Random pull XYZ, looking at the opener:

Kuzzy opener:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xq ... iew=events" target="_blank
Precast -> Crystal -> AP -> Pom. PoM looks weird here.

Beazy:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xq ... iew=events" target="_blank
Crystal before casting -> Casting -> Pom at the end of crystal missplayed it.

Icelance:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xq ... iew=events" target="_blank
Crystal before casting. PoM to early, definitly missplayed it.

Rezzen:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xq ... iew=events" target="_blank
AP before Crystal. Crystal before casting. No PoM on opener

Well, It is definitly nonsense to cast AP before Crystal. When to use crystal on Archimonde is also a tricky question. It comes down to when you do ring. A lot of guys like to precast crystal. Precasting crystal is that strategy which results in a 30:70 chance of sucking without PoF procc. But a "correct" CD usage does not work on archimonde either. And casting PC to late will result in a buggy ring which is even worse. Anyway, my own preference is to Precast AB-> Pom ab -> Crystal. Does it matter? Who cares about boss dps in P1?

PoM is debatable. Not using it sucks. Using it with stopcasting sucks. Using it with / without AP doesnt matter (during this content). The gain of a correct PoM usage is that high that macroing to any spell is definitly the to go option. No seriously, this shit doesnt matter. (Using it with AP is usually the no brainer macro)
For any advanced playstile, this kind of macros allows to use it without having to stopcast, but it is still a little bit delayed. And as already mentioned, I do use it to get as much stacks as possible before using PC on the opener. I usually use it for mana instead of fitting that last AB into crystals duration.

Code: Select all

/cast Presence of Mind /cast Arcane Blast /cast Presence of Mind

During fight - Cooldown usage.

Code: Select all

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xqPQjhWXc1wtrV3J#fight=17&type=damage-done&sourceclass=Mage&pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%240.0.0.Mage%24false%24187616^0%24Separate%24%23909049%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%240.0.0.Mage%24false%2412042&by=target

(For reasons this one does not work as a link, so you need to copy paste it into your browser. I usually do highlight Nithramus and Arcane Power for every mage)


Well, ring usage is highly debatable. Mage cooldowns are on 90 second CD. A lot of classes have CDs on 3 min. Some do have 2 min cooldowns. You are using your legendary ring roughly 2 minutes and 50 seconds after your last one, no one can really delay cooldowns to it. I don't think you can blame any mage for that ring usage. This just looks really, really weird. I do recommend:

• A) Use it roughly every 2 mins - mages should delay their cooldowns to it
• B) Use it roughly every 3 mins - mages can use 1x Cooldowns on "cooldown" and having CDs up for the next ring usage.
• Keep in mind that you probably still want the ring to go just into the boss

Does it matter? Well yeah, this one would fix dps quite significantly. But does it matter for killing archimonde? No.

(Ring usage on try 32 is actually case B) where all of your mages - except rezzen - used their cooldowns decently)

Tl;Dr:
- Rezzen should fix his AP / Prismatic crystal opener, maybe adjust some macros. Because it looks bad in logs.
- All of your mages could macro PoM to whatever spell they want, but you'll always find a guy that shouts: Look at those mages, they use pom wrong. But even if those guys are right, it does not matter.
- All your mages should ask themself if they want to play that 30:70 gamble on the pull. If the ring is used way to early they probably should play it.
- Learn to ring as a raid - well, you probably did that already
- And focus on things that do matter on archimonde. Don't get me wrong on that: increasing dps is mostly decent, but focusing on WHY you do wipe is probably way better.

P.S. Have to mention that I'm just looking at arcane specc right now. You've here some decent posts about probably running another specc to increase DPS or to handle adds better. Fire and Frost are both viable options, but if your mages played arcane during progression - they probably should stick to it, unless it is necessary. (This also includes talents, I.e. supernova / Um / Arcane orb / pc)

[Aheon]

This is the kind of post I was looking for, thank you very much. It's not strictly a DPS issue, but I figured asking to see if numbers could be increased even just slightly, because it felt like the DPS from two mages was low during most times we got to lust in p3.

Question though, whats' the "30/70" you're talking about? Precasting crystal results in a chance of PoF being put on the boss? I'm a bit confused here, ngl.

edit: Yeah I was frost for 12/13m progression, (Icelance) so I have a bit more multistrike than I should. I tried frost but I don't seem to put out competitive numbers on the fight. Phase 1 we push the first Doomfire only, and we avoid getting the 2nd one.
so yeah im arcane for that reason.

[DyLemma]

Dropping crystal on pull is not bad, just a FYI.

[skiz]

This is the kind of post I was looking for, thank you very much. It's not strictly a DPS issue, but I figured asking to see if numbers could be increased even just slightly, because it felt like the DPS from two mages was low during most times we got to lust in p3.

Question though, whats' the "30/70" you're talking about? Precasting crystal results in a chance of PoF being put on the boss? I'm a bit confused here, ngl.

edit: Yeah I was frost for 12/13m progression, (Icelance) so I have a bit more multistrike than I should. I tried frost but I don't seem to put out competitive numbers on the fight. Phase 1 we push the first Doomfire only, and we avoid getting the 2nd one.
so yeah im arcane for that reason.

30/70. You have a ~30% chance of PoF procc on the Crystal on your first cast - if you precast it. And afterwards It is more likely that your procc will be on the boss. It isnt a 70% chance to procc on the boss. But it is more likely to get a boss procc. And the idea of an early PC is actually to have that procc on the crystal. It just feels like a risky binary gamble on the first second. If you push for 1 Doomfire frost sucks, yeah. Fire may be an option, but sticking to arcane should be it. Arcane orb or Supernova may still be an option.

[Zelendria]

Dropping crystal on pull is not bad, just a FYI.

Considering you only do it to sway RNG for the proc to go on you PC, it's pretty bad when it doesn't work, and your PC has only been hit with the really weak ABs...

[Wilderness]

Dropping crystal on pull is not bad, just a FYI.

Considering you only do it to sway RNG for the proc to go on you PC, it's pretty bad when it doesn't work, and your PC has only been hit with the really weak ABs...

Yeah, I don't think I'd recommend dropping it on the pull on progression.

[Aheon]

Just wanted to update and say we downed it yesterday, while with only 3 mages, it's dead, we just gotta get the other one in. Thanks for the advice. I personally switched to precast AB, PoM AB then crystal+ AP and go in. Worked better to be more consistent.

[Rinoa]

Congratulations on the kill.

[Mejn]

What I find the best way for Crystal is to precast AB drop Crystal and pop cds, with berserking and wpn enchant it really goes up fast to 4 and u can pull big numbers easily.

[Pkm]

Did I read correctly in this thread that fire is better on mythic archimonde?

I mean at this point in the game with everyone so geared and insane rings it's not going to matter much is it?

[Wilderness]

Did I read correctly in this thread that fire is better on mythic archimonde?

No?

I mean at this point in the game with everyone so geared and insane rings it's not going to matter much is it?

You can kill it with any mage spec, but Arcane or Frost are better suited for progression.

[Pkm]

You can kill it with any mage spec, but Arcane or Frost are better suited for progression.

what does frost excel at for progression?