[Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

[Nixia]

I wanted to ask the same thing - since they are giving us a higher amount of procs, I would assume Bomb to gain even more value compared to IN. How far is Nova ahead of Bomb right now?

And what about 2 target cleave? How does UM compare to Bomb, in the current PTR build?


Also, about Arcane - in the PTR tier and trinket discussion thread, someone mentioned (in an early build) that AM did not trigger doom nova. Does AM now trigger explosions?

(Thanks in advance, and sorry if this has been answered before. I have been following this thread, but only registered on the forums yesterday.)

[Frosted]

Regarding Trinkets, as you mentioned Melee-Trinkets. The Icicle-Interaction might be intended. Take Retribution and Empty Drinking Horn as an example. This is the reason they sim that strong, because its triggered by almost everything (and it even screws the whole statpriority lol). Looks like Blizzard wants gear to have a higher impact on PvE balance than normal.

Yeah, it's possible. If that does happen Frost single target will be basically equal to Arcane, assuming some improvements to the current Frost 4pc use. I'd question how practical the 4pc is though. Most fights I'd imagine you could never get 14s of every WJ channel uses.

So I was wondering about something. What will be the best spec when 6.2 launches with the current gear we have? Maybe bis gear from BRF without sockets and WF. Will we still play arcane for ST or go frost even tho we dont have the set bonuses and the new trinkets from HFC?

They are pretty close in T17 gear. I don't think there is a clearcut "best" spec, Arcane/Frost are too close.

Does haste reign supreme even when we get the legendary ring? Or do we go back to mastery?

No clue. Unfortunately blizz won't let us test the ring, and mages are the class who have the most assumptions about its damage and how it interactions with us. Effectively, this means it's worthless to look at the ring and mages until we can test it and how it interactions with our pets/PC/trinkets. The costs of being the most interesting class

Is the current version of Simcraft updated already so we can do some work too? Because i have quite a few questions left and i dont expect you to answer them all!

@Frosted, are the respective Specs used in the simulations the highest ST of each?

Frostbomb is behind IN despite all the buffs to waterbolt? What about Thermal Void + FB?

The Cleave Niche for Frost was to be expected after the recent changes imho.

Why are the Sims Heroic?

The nightly builds have all the most recent changes we make. You can go get those and start messing around.

Yes, each sim was done with the talent profile that sim'd highest for the type of fight.

IN is ahead, yea. It was very surprising, and I don't really know why. TBH I spent like 12hrs or something stupid running all of those sims yesterday, there wasn't really much time to pick through them and figure out why things are they way they are. In the coming days I'd expect we'll figure out what's going on there. As for FBomb + TV, you can go check out the Frost SimC General Info thread over in the Frost subforum to see where it sits.

Sure, it was probably safe to assume Frost would be the cleave king, especially after the FoF-IL buff.

Traditionally we always work with the highest ilvl gear when working on this sort of general info. Unfortunately, the mythic profiles are using the legendary ring though. I chose to use the heroic instead to avoid that, and also so that people could run their own stuff along side mine and not have to worry about swapping around the rings.

I wanted to ask the same thing - since they are giving us a higher amount of procs, I would assume Bomb to gain even more value compared to IN. How far is Nova ahead of Bomb right now?

And what about 2 target cleave? How does UM compare to Bomb, in the current PTR build?

Also, about Arcane - in the PTR tier and trinket discussion thread, someone mentioned (in an early build) that AM did not trigger doom nova. Does AM now trigger explosions?

(Thanks in advance, and sorry if this has been answered before. I have been following this thread, but only registered on the forums yesterday.)

As I said above, no clue on IN vs. FBomb. I haven't looked through logs really to see what's going on (and I kinda want to just pewpew zombies today instead of running more sims :3)

Frost SimC General Info thread over in the Frost subforum.

Yes, AM triggers explosions now. That was fixed pretty quickly.

[Mortiferus]

Currently, no you dont want to go frost for Single Target. Its behind Arcane in current sims, and it scales less. The 2 Target niche is interesting, but its not tht easy to equip for arcane + frost at the same time.

If the Prophecy of Fear bug is indeed intended, Frost is actually fairly even with Arcane, at least until you have the Legendary Ring, which exaggerates the scaling differential that you identified.

As to gearing, it's not "easy" to equip for any two specs simultaneously at this point. Since Arcane is no longer enchanting, gemming or even prioritizing Mastery, it looks like we're losing the luxury to use one set of gear for two specs regardless of which specs you choose.

Contrary to my previous opinion (which was pre-hotfixes), Arcane/Frost might be the way to go in HFC. At the very least, it's certainly worth exploring. But no matter which specs you choose, you're going to need to switch out gear far more than in the past tier.

[Eva]

I would like to ask the fellow PTR-tested mages something about arcane's rotation, as I couldnt attend to PTR due to limited time.
Let's say you have prophecy-tome and the 4-set on any difficulty. Do you bank AM to use them when mark of doom is up, or the rotation remains the same, i.e AB if mana>93% and AM if mana<93%? Do the mana thresholds for burn and conserve phases change with the new gear?
Thanks in advance!

[Frosted]

Some people have brought up the two priorities I listed and that MS scale factor should be higher. The initial gearset I ran, before swapping out boots/wrists, had mastery higher than MS. But now with those changes mastery has dropped a bit lower. I'm struggling to put together everything into a single priority, but this might work.

Haste 20% (1300rating) > Int > Haste(25-26%) > Mastery=MS > Haste > Crit > Vers.

The only problem here (and one of the main reasons I didn't want to just say to do this outright) is that the sim might not agree with this, and I think people are WAY too secondary stat focused when it comes to evaluating gear-upgrades. Like, I've been in raids where people deny 10+ilvls because it "doesn't have my best stat." Intellect is your best stat. Do not tank your ilvl for more haste after you hit around 20%.

I don't know if this is right. I'm still throwing ideas around in my head to figure something out that both makes sense with how much mastery/haste/ms value seem to jump around, and will not be overly complicated such that it's hard to apply in a practical raid setting.

[Frosted]

I would like to ask the fellow PTR-tested mages something about arcane's rotation, as I couldnt attend to PTR due to limited time.
Let's say you have prophecy-tome and the 4-set on any difficulty. Do you bank AM to use them when mark of doom is up, or the rotation remains the same, i.e AB if mana>93% and AM if mana<93%? Do the mana thresholds for burn and conserve phases change with the new gear?
Thanks in advance!

I haven't tried banking AMs, but in general banking procs is almost never a good idea. Especially for something that is RPPM.

[rodic88]

IN is ahead, yea. It was very surprising, and I don't really know why. TBH I spent like 12hrs or something stupid running all of those sims yesterday, there wasn't really much time to pick through them and figure out why things are they way they are. In the coming days I'd expect we'll figure out what's going on there. As for FBomb + TV, you can go check out the Frost SimC General Info thread over in the Frost subforum to see where it sits.

Thanks for the great works!

I got a question here. Since yesterday I can't access the subforum (you and komma) of SimC.

It kept saying like this

"Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /Frost/ on this server.

Apache Server at downloads.simulationcraft.org Port 80"

Do you have any idea what is going on? Thanks!

[Frosted]

IN is ahead, yea. It was very surprising, and I don't really know why. TBH I spent like 12hrs or something stupid running all of those sims yesterday, there wasn't really much time to pick through them and figure out why things are they way they are. In the coming days I'd expect we'll figure out what's going on there. As for FBomb + TV, you can go check out the Frost SimC General Info thread over in the Frost subforum to see where it sits.

Thanks for the great works!

I got a question here. Since yesterday I can't access the subforum (you and komma) of SimC.

It kept saying like this

"Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /Frost/ on this server.

Apache Server at downloads.simulationcraft.org Port 80"

Do you have any idea what is going on? Thanks!

We had them made hidden. They are not really there for the purpose of being looked through for whatever we're working on, but more for us to host specific files (like the pairwise trinket sims I had in there) for direct linking. Or for us to use as a way to share files between us/other members that are works in progress(things that could confuse/lead people astray)

[Muoric]

Small detail about your bis list for frost:

With the stat weights you gave, shouldn't we swap the offpiece from Countenance of the Revenant (helm, 478 dps higher than tier) to Leggings of the Iron Summoner (529 dps higher than tier)?

[Frosted]

Code: Select all

62704 50.1% new_legs_offset 62373 49.9% Mage_Frost_T18H

Yup. I'll change that then.

[Komma]

I got a question here. Since yesterday I can't access the subforum (you and komma) of SimC.

It kept saying like this

"Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /Frost/ on this server.

Apache Server at downloads.simulationcraft.org Port 80"

Do you have any idea what is going on? Thanks!

To expand on this, index pages for personal folders in the downloads directory of SimC have been disabled due to abuse. Players were stalking project member folders for debugging raid sims, and using them to spread misinformation on forums.

[Komma]

I am trying to compile a 6.2 "State of the Specs" post before Tuesday. It's meant as a summary for Mages who haven't been following PTR news closely, so I want to keep it short and focused on the main things. What would you guys like to see in it? So far I have:
- Basic spec comparisons
- Set bonuses
- Trinkets (class and exotic ones like Prophecy of Fear
- Stats and gearing (due to itemlevel changes)
- Notable talent/spec combos
- Predictions for how well each spec plays out in HFC

That's already a lot of things, so I'd rather cut down on the list instead of adding to it. Is there something you guys would rather see, or feel like don't need to be included in this list?

EDIT: Also, relink whatever loot lists/useful links you can think of!

[Vatti]

Talents for bosses and bis list please <3

[Komma]

Talents for bosses and bis list please <3

Hah, probably not. Haven't done any raid testing since my guild died, and BiS list is something for people to figure out over the tier anyway. Would most likely end up as misinfo if I posted either of those.

[Vatti]

Talents for bosses and bis list please <3

Hah, probably not. Haven't done any raid testing since my guild died, and BiS list is something for people to figure out over the tier anyway. Would most likely end up as misinfo if I posted either of those.

booooo!

just kidding, appreciate the effort.

[Eva]

I have made some BiS lists, w/o enchants tho, on profiler on wowhead. Only for frost and arcane. I can share them with you.

[Lissanna]

I am trying to compile a 6.2 "State of the Specs" post before Tuesday. It's meant as a summary for Mages who haven't been following PTR news closely, so I want to keep it short and focused on the main things. What would you guys like to see in it? So far I have:
- Basic spec comparisons
- Set bonuses
- Trinkets (class and exotic ones like Prophecy of Fear
- Stats and gearing (due to itemlevel changes)
- Notable talent/spec combos
- Predictions for how well each spec plays out in HFC

That's already a lot of things, so I'd rather cut down on the list instead of adding to it. Is there something you guys would rather see, or feel like don't need to be included in this list?

EDIT: Also, relink whatever loot lists/useful links you can think of!

This looks like a good list. This is what I've been trying to figure out for getting my spec ready for HFC. I was running mostly fire at the end of BRF, so I had to drop fire and then figure out how to play all over again. I'm going to give frost a try for a little while and see how it plays out. I have arcane as my secondary spec so I can swap to it if frost doesn't hold up.

[Akaleth]

I am trying to compile a 6.2 "State of the Specs" post before Tuesday. It's meant as a summary for Mages who haven't been following PTR news closely, so I want to keep it short and focused on the main things. What would you guys like to see in it? So far I have:
- Basic spec comparisons
- Set bonuses
- Trinkets (class and exotic ones like Prophecy of Fear
- Stats and gearing (due to itemlevel changes)
- Notable talent/spec combos
- Predictions for how well each spec plays out in HFC

That's already a lot of things, so I'd rather cut down on the list instead of adding to it. Is there something you guys would rather see, or feel like don't need to be included in this list?

EDIT: Also, relink whatever loot lists/useful links you can think of!

Will "set bonuses" include correct points to switch from T17 to T18?

[Festen]

I have made some BiS lists, w/o enchants tho, on profiler on wowhead. Only for frost and arcane. I can share them with you.

Would be great

[Eva]

I am trying to compile a 6.2 "State of the Specs" post before Tuesday. It's meant as a summary for Mages who haven't been following PTR news closely, so I want to keep it short and focused on the main things. What would you guys like to see in it? So far I have:
- Basic spec comparisons
- Set bonuses
- Trinkets (class and exotic ones like Prophecy of Fear
- Stats and gearing (due to itemlevel changes)
- Notable talent/spec combos
- Predictions for how well each spec plays out in HFC

That's already a lot of things, so I'd rather cut down on the list instead of adding to it. Is there something you guys would rather see, or feel like don't need to be included in this list?

EDIT: Also, relink whatever loot lists/useful links you can think of!

I was thinking of doing a video on those stuffs