[Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
I've been thinking about the legendary ring and have decided to kind of dump my thoughts here for people to pick through.
For reference here is the ring:
First, a few assumptions.
1) The legendary ring explosion impacts Prismatic Crystal. From everything I've read, this is a safe assumption.
2) All damage sources contribute to the legendary rings final damage for the duration of it's charging period.
3) Prismatic Crystal damage amplification may or may not effect the ring explosion itself, but does effect the spells that can build the rings explosion value.
From these assumptions, which I think are fair to make, one can surmise that in 6.2 there will be a strong emphasis placed on two types of damage:
1) Controllable, semi-frequently available, high magnitude burst damage
2) Sustained AoE
The first of those damage sources is for single target encounters. Controllable is obvious - you have to be able to choose when to burst to best take advantage of the 15s window you have to dump damage into the ring. Semi-frequent is an additional trait that is desirable. The ring CD is currently 2minutes. Having your primary burst be centered around 3min+ CDs means that you cannot have your burst available for every ring CD, and so you are under-utilizing the effect. High magnitude is also obvious. You want to dump a huge amount of damage into the ring so that you are maximizing the effects.
If we look at our specs, Arcane and Frost immediately come to mind as candidates for controllable burst. Arcane, with it's burn phase, Arcane Power, and Evocation being completely under its control can easily swap into a damage dump phase to power the ring. Frost can utilize Frozen Orb and Ivy Veins in a similar manner, in addition to proc banking, to ensure that it is able to dump a large amount of damage into the target when the ring proc is up. Fire, while capable of a large amount of burst in combustion, does not always have this burst available as it is reliant on a good combustion set up to pull off and with the loss of the 2xIB trick this will be less easy to ensure.
Arcane and Frost are our best candidates so far for single target. However, they don't pair up equally in regards to the next two desirable traits. Frost has Frozen Orb every minute, but the throughput from this is significantly lower without Icy Veins. Icy Veins, being a 3min CD, will not be available for every ring CD and is therefore not as desirable. Arcane on the other hand has the option of leaving Arcane Power unglyphed, lasting a convenient 15 seconds, thereby giving Arcane the ability to have controlled burst for every ring CD.
There is the possibility that the throughput of Frozen Orb + Icy Veins every other ring CD is still competitive with Arcane with it's Arcane Power every ring CD, if the damage from Frozen Orb + Icy Veins is significantly higher than the damage we would gain from Arcane Power. So, let's look at the burst in two very simple ways.
Simulation based comparisons (using 6.2 PTR data):
Arcane
Frost
Napkin Math based comparisons:
For both of Arcane and Frost I'm going to assume no haste.
Arcane
For Arcane specially I'm going to begin with the assumption that we're at 4xArcane Charges when the ring begins pooling damage done. Additionally, I'll assume that the current T18 2pc set bonus (Each time you cast Arcane Blast, the cooldown of your Presence of Mind is reduced by 30 sec) is available and that the pets summoned by the 4pc don't deal damage that contributes to the ring. This second assumption is mainly because I don't know what the pets do yet. I'm also going to assume that we're just spamming Arcane Blast into the ring. Arcane Power is up, and just to make things interesting we're going to assume that the class trinket is being used!
Under these assumptions (and some other details like certain amounts of different stats), Arcane is going to deal ~879k mil damage into the ring to be modified and turned into the explosion.
Frost
For Frost I'll assume the same stats as Arcane (just with less mastery / more multistrike). I'll assume all FoF-ILs and FFB-BFs are critical strikes, that the T18 2pc is a +40% damage modifier onto BFs existing damage modifier, and that you have 5 icicles stored from frostbolt spam from before the ring begins storing damage. We get 10 ticks of FO, and cast 2xBF-FFBs followed by 6x FoF-ILs (5 of which get Splitting Ice treatment, since we drop PC in there to).
Under these conditions, Frost deals ~868k damage into the ring.
If you want to look at exactly what I did, it's here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0" target="_blank
There are a couple things I think we can take away from this.
If we just look at the sims (which honestly are extremely rough estimates - the arcane profile isn't even using the AP trinket), we see the problem I brought up earlier. Arcane has consistent burst at the 1.5min interval, which can be sync'd with the ring (and enhanced further with the trinket). Frost on the other hand has significant burst potential - but it's only every 3 minutes. So timing is definitely a major issue for Frost - it relies very heavily on Icy Veins to generate burst.
If we use napkin math, we see that with the AP trinket involved Arcane burst actually starts to equal Frosts burst potential (I reduced the Arcane spell power amount due to the use of the arcane trinket, just to be clear). But for Frost, there is no way to provide a significant spike to burst. Because the Arcane trinket is currently simming as a significant DPS gain overall, this gain in burst potential isn't coming as any tradeoff either - it's just a straight up DPS increase which also allows Arcane to sync significantly better with the ring. On top of this, if the ring is actually affected by the PC amp value (which it very well may be), Arcane is by default the winner here as well since its PC amp value is 30% vs the 10% of Frost.
Moving onto the second type of damage that will be favored, sustained AoE. I say sustained AoE because the ring says it deals 25% of "all damage they dealt." To me, this means to ALL targets. Meaning, if I have 10 pyro DoTs, and 10LB DoTs rolling/exploding, and 10 ignites ticking, ALL of that damage goes into the ring. I don't think I need to run sims here or do any sort of math to say that for 2+ targets, Fire is going to dominate this sort of damage type.
Putting all of this together, the ring seems to be undermining the efforts put forward to bring Frost up into a more competitive realm in 6.2. It takes the problem of Arcane > Frost on ST and exaggerates it further by providing another mechanism that Arcane mages can abuse harder, and more often, than Frost mages. In the realm of AoE, Frost never had a chance against Fire to begin with and none of the tuning changes really bolster Frost AoE in any significant way to change that. With so much emphasis people are placing on the ring (which could be misguided, to be fair) I don't see a reason to play Frost in raids next tier if the current ring design stays in place and has the kind of impact on DPS people are anticipating.
For reference here is the ring:
First, a few assumptions.
1) The legendary ring explosion impacts Prismatic Crystal. From everything I've read, this is a safe assumption.
2) All damage sources contribute to the legendary rings final damage for the duration of it's charging period.
3) Prismatic Crystal damage amplification may or may not effect the ring explosion itself, but does effect the spells that can build the rings explosion value.
From these assumptions, which I think are fair to make, one can surmise that in 6.2 there will be a strong emphasis placed on two types of damage:
1) Controllable, semi-frequently available, high magnitude burst damage
2) Sustained AoE
The first of those damage sources is for single target encounters. Controllable is obvious - you have to be able to choose when to burst to best take advantage of the 15s window you have to dump damage into the ring. Semi-frequent is an additional trait that is desirable. The ring CD is currently 2minutes. Having your primary burst be centered around 3min+ CDs means that you cannot have your burst available for every ring CD, and so you are under-utilizing the effect. High magnitude is also obvious. You want to dump a huge amount of damage into the ring so that you are maximizing the effects.
If we look at our specs, Arcane and Frost immediately come to mind as candidates for controllable burst. Arcane, with it's burn phase, Arcane Power, and Evocation being completely under its control can easily swap into a damage dump phase to power the ring. Frost can utilize Frozen Orb and Ivy Veins in a similar manner, in addition to proc banking, to ensure that it is able to dump a large amount of damage into the target when the ring proc is up. Fire, while capable of a large amount of burst in combustion, does not always have this burst available as it is reliant on a good combustion set up to pull off and with the loss of the 2xIB trick this will be less easy to ensure.
Arcane and Frost are our best candidates so far for single target. However, they don't pair up equally in regards to the next two desirable traits. Frost has Frozen Orb every minute, but the throughput from this is significantly lower without Icy Veins. Icy Veins, being a 3min CD, will not be available for every ring CD and is therefore not as desirable. Arcane on the other hand has the option of leaving Arcane Power unglyphed, lasting a convenient 15 seconds, thereby giving Arcane the ability to have controlled burst for every ring CD.
There is the possibility that the throughput of Frozen Orb + Icy Veins every other ring CD is still competitive with Arcane with it's Arcane Power every ring CD, if the damage from Frozen Orb + Icy Veins is significantly higher than the damage we would gain from Arcane Power. So, let's look at the burst in two very simple ways.
Simulation based comparisons (using 6.2 PTR data):
Arcane
Frost
Napkin Math based comparisons:
For both of Arcane and Frost I'm going to assume no haste.
Arcane
For Arcane specially I'm going to begin with the assumption that we're at 4xArcane Charges when the ring begins pooling damage done. Additionally, I'll assume that the current T18 2pc set bonus (Each time you cast Arcane Blast, the cooldown of your Presence of Mind is reduced by 30 sec) is available and that the pets summoned by the 4pc don't deal damage that contributes to the ring. This second assumption is mainly because I don't know what the pets do yet. I'm also going to assume that we're just spamming Arcane Blast into the ring. Arcane Power is up, and just to make things interesting we're going to assume that the class trinket is being used!
Under these assumptions (and some other details like certain amounts of different stats), Arcane is going to deal ~879k mil damage into the ring to be modified and turned into the explosion.
Frost
For Frost I'll assume the same stats as Arcane (just with less mastery / more multistrike). I'll assume all FoF-ILs and FFB-BFs are critical strikes, that the T18 2pc is a +40% damage modifier onto BFs existing damage modifier, and that you have 5 icicles stored from frostbolt spam from before the ring begins storing damage. We get 10 ticks of FO, and cast 2xBF-FFBs followed by 6x FoF-ILs (5 of which get Splitting Ice treatment, since we drop PC in there to).
Under these conditions, Frost deals ~868k damage into the ring.
If you want to look at exactly what I did, it's here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0" target="_blank
There are a couple things I think we can take away from this.
If we just look at the sims (which honestly are extremely rough estimates - the arcane profile isn't even using the AP trinket), we see the problem I brought up earlier. Arcane has consistent burst at the 1.5min interval, which can be sync'd with the ring (and enhanced further with the trinket). Frost on the other hand has significant burst potential - but it's only every 3 minutes. So timing is definitely a major issue for Frost - it relies very heavily on Icy Veins to generate burst.
If we use napkin math, we see that with the AP trinket involved Arcane burst actually starts to equal Frosts burst potential (I reduced the Arcane spell power amount due to the use of the arcane trinket, just to be clear). But for Frost, there is no way to provide a significant spike to burst. Because the Arcane trinket is currently simming as a significant DPS gain overall, this gain in burst potential isn't coming as any tradeoff either - it's just a straight up DPS increase which also allows Arcane to sync significantly better with the ring. On top of this, if the ring is actually affected by the PC amp value (which it very well may be), Arcane is by default the winner here as well since its PC amp value is 30% vs the 10% of Frost.
Moving onto the second type of damage that will be favored, sustained AoE. I say sustained AoE because the ring says it deals 25% of "all damage they dealt." To me, this means to ALL targets. Meaning, if I have 10 pyro DoTs, and 10LB DoTs rolling/exploding, and 10 ignites ticking, ALL of that damage goes into the ring. I don't think I need to run sims here or do any sort of math to say that for 2+ targets, Fire is going to dominate this sort of damage type.
Putting all of this together, the ring seems to be undermining the efforts put forward to bring Frost up into a more competitive realm in 6.2. It takes the problem of Arcane > Frost on ST and exaggerates it further by providing another mechanism that Arcane mages can abuse harder, and more often, than Frost mages. In the realm of AoE, Frost never had a chance against Fire to begin with and none of the tuning changes really bolster Frost AoE in any significant way to change that. With so much emphasis people are placing on the ring (which could be misguided, to be fair) I don't see a reason to play Frost in raids next tier if the current ring design stays in place and has the kind of impact on DPS people are anticipating.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
While I don't disagree with your conclusion, I think a large part of the issue is that Frost is currently unable to take advantage of their trinket during the 15s legendary window. Arcane burst without the trinket is nothing special; most of it comes from PC/Supernova at the moment. If the Frost trinket were redesigned Frost could still be competitive - just in more of a one big burst followed by a little burst vs. two moderate bursts way, which seems like a meaningful choice players would be able to make.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
In the caparisons above I assumed that Frost didn't use its class trinket, while Arcane did. If you look at the spellpower value that Frost is using for all of it's spell calcs, it's using one that is 400 higher than what Arcane is using. So it is getting 'some' trinket use in the 15s window. But you're right - its class trinket is completely worthless for the ring. On top of it being a large DPS loss vs current tier trinkets anyways, if you choose that trinket you are losing even more DPS for the ring.
Last edited by Frosted on Wed May 13, 2015 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
So I learned that pets should be included in Ring damage. So frost should have a bit more damage than it does in my post above.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
How will this effect mirror images for any spec? The 2 minute cooldowns line up rather well.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
I'm not sure how MI works with it. I'm hoping we get to test it soon so we can figure out all the small details
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
Initial thoughts on Arcane 4pc form PTR testing.
I spent an hour trying to get as many pet summons as possible.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8N ... e&source=5" target="_blank
This is a very under-optimized log. I'm not using talents (normally would use SN). Not using PC, purposefully not using Evocation so I spend more globals on AB/PoM. Not using IF/RoP (which the pets don't seem to benefit from anyways).
In an hour of trying to get as many pets as I could, they did less than a million damage. Collectively, they did 2.27%. I had a couple Arthas summons (not in logs due to bug), it'd be maybe 3%. Maybe.
3% damage when I'm not even trying is FAR too low. If I were actually trying and had PC, SN, and AP boosted damage sources (not to mention proper burn/conserve cycles) these pets would be struggling to be 1% of my damage.
This is especially problematic with the introduction of tiered ilvl. 5-10ilvls will easily overpower a set bonus doing 1-2% of my DPS. Add this on top of the fact that the current Arcane 2pc is valued around 2%, and you have a situation where you almost don't even want to use set bonuses at all. It'd be worth more to simply gear for the highest ilvl offset pieces available.
I spent an hour trying to get as many pet summons as possible.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8N ... e&source=5" target="_blank
This is a very under-optimized log. I'm not using talents (normally would use SN). Not using PC, purposefully not using Evocation so I spend more globals on AB/PoM. Not using IF/RoP (which the pets don't seem to benefit from anyways).
In an hour of trying to get as many pets as I could, they did less than a million damage. Collectively, they did 2.27%. I had a couple Arthas summons (not in logs due to bug), it'd be maybe 3%. Maybe.
3% damage when I'm not even trying is FAR too low. If I were actually trying and had PC, SN, and AP boosted damage sources (not to mention proper burn/conserve cycles) these pets would be struggling to be 1% of my damage.
This is especially problematic with the introduction of tiered ilvl. 5-10ilvls will easily overpower a set bonus doing 1-2% of my DPS. Add this on top of the fact that the current Arcane 2pc is valued around 2%, and you have a situation where you almost don't even want to use set bonuses at all. It'd be worth more to simply gear for the highest ilvl offset pieces available.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124232/intu ... 0#comments" target="_blank
thoughts on this for fire/arcane?
Seems insane for fire, probably decentish for arcane?
thoughts on this for fire/arcane?
Seems insane for fire, probably decentish for arcane?
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
That seems really good....I have no clue why that is not a DPS trinket. That is absolutely a fire mage trinket. Why the hell is that tagged a healer trinket???
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
just judging from how highly goren soul sims relative to the other HFC trinkets, that healer trinket is prob gonna dump all over the other fire trinkets. Times up greatly with combust, but won't matter since we'd probably hold until legendary ring anyhow.
Also, the crit proc at mythic ilevel looks like it can hardcap crit for fire, assuming baseline ~35-40% crit.
Also, the crit proc at mythic ilevel looks like it can hardcap crit for fire, assuming baseline ~35-40% crit.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
Do we think the Arcane version ofhttp://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124516/tome ... ds&bonus=0 will see greater use of http://www.wowhead.com/spell=157977/unstable-magic assuming use of http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124228/dese ... n-insignia as the other trinket. This is assuming that the post in http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1614 by Komma is correct/stays the same for live that http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124230/prop ... ar&bonus=0 is not triggered by unstable magic.
Seems like they will sync quite well, and even further with http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=186165/ite ... e-2p-bonus which i imagine increases the number of http://www.wowhead.com/spell=30451/arcane-blasts in standard rotation
Seems like they will sync quite well, and even further with http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=186165/ite ... e-2p-bonus which i imagine increases the number of http://www.wowhead.com/spell=30451/arcane-blasts in standard rotation
Killget : Sublime - Silvermoon EU
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/S ... t/advanced
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/S ... t/advanced
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
If what I hear is correct, the mastery rating is a mistake, and supposed to be spirit instead.http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124232/intu ... 0#comments
thoughts on this for fire/arcane?
Seems insane for fire, probably decentish for arcane?
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
bah, what a downer. Looked like basically the perfect fire trinket.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
RE: Arcane 2pc
Seems you can't just macro PoM in to AB as the cast immediately after your AB reduces the PoM CD to 0 won't activate PoM because of how ability queuing works.
Makes me wonder if the class balance team even tried the tier out.
Seems you can't just macro PoM in to AB as the cast immediately after your AB reduces the PoM CD to 0 won't activate PoM because of how ability queuing works.
Makes me wonder if the class balance team even tried the tier out.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
For those interested, I made a list of all the HFC gear for us.
http://pastebin.com/xpN2y4Ai" target="_blank
( crit / ms ) means the item has more crit than ms. ( crit//ms ) means the item has significantly more crit than ms.
http://pastebin.com/xpN2y4Ai" target="_blank
( crit / ms ) means the item has more crit than ms. ( crit//ms ) means the item has significantly more crit than ms.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
Starting point for SimC profiles.
Code: Select all
mage="Mage_Arcane_T18M"
level=100
race=gnome
role=spell
position=back
talents=3003322
glyphs=cone_of_cold
spec=arcane
head=,id=124159,bonus_id=567
neck=,id=124212,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_mastery
shoulders=,id=124177,bonus_id=567
back=,id=124138,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_mastery
chest=,id=124171,bonus_id=567
wrists=,id=124186,bonus_id=567
hands=,id=124154,bonus_id=567
waist=,id=124181,bonus_id=567
legs=,id=124165,bonus_id=567
feet=,id=124149,bonus_id=567
finger1=,id=124192,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_mastery
finger2=spellbound_runic_band_of_the_allseeing_eye,id=118306,enchant=gift_of_mastery
trinket1=,id=124516,bonus_id=567
trinket2=,id=124230,bonus_id=567
main_hand=,id=124382,bonus_id=567,enchant=mark_of_bleeding_hollow
Code: Select all
mage="Mage_Fire_T18M"
level=100
race=troll
role=spell
position=back
talents=3003322
glyphs=inferno_blast/combustion/dragons_breath
spec=fire
head=,id=124159,bonus_id=567
neck=,id=124212,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_critical_strike
shoulders=,id=124177,bonus_id=567
back=,id=124138,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_critical_strike
chest=,id=124171,bonus_id=567
wrists=,id=124186,bonus_id=567
hands=,id=124154,bonus_id=567
waist=,id=124181,bonus_id=567
legs=,id=124165,bonus_id=567
feet=,id=124149,bonus_id=567
finger1=,id=124192,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_critical_strike
finger2=spellbound_runic_band_of_the_allseeing_eye,id=118306,enchant=gift_of_critical_strike
trinket1=,id=124516,bonus_id=567
trinket2=,id=124230,bonus_id=567
main_hand=,id=124382,bonus_id=567,enchant=mark_of_the_thunderlord
Code: Select all
mage="Mage_Frost_T18M"
level=100
race=dwarf
role=spell
position=back
talents=3003122
glyphs=icy_veins/splitting_ice/cone_of_cold
spec=frost
head=,id=124159,bonus_id=567
neck=,id=124212,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_multistrike
shoulders=,id=124177,bonus_id=567
back=,id=124138,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_multistrike
chest=,id=124171,bonus_id=567
wrists=,id=124186,bonus_id=567
hands=,id=124154,bonus_id=567
waist=,id=124181,bonus_id=567
legs=,id=124165,bonus_id=567
feet=,id=124149,bonus_id=567
finger1=,id=124192,bonus_id=567,enchant=gift_of_multistrike
finger2=spellbound_runic_band_of_the_allseeing_eye,id=118306,enchant=gift_of_multistrike
trinket1=,id=124516,bonus_id=567
trinket2=,id=124230,bonus_id=567
main_hand=,id=124382,bonus_id=567,enchant=mark_of_the_frostwolf
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
Could be true, but there's also a blue post stating that some trinkets are flagged incorrectly. Just hope that it keeps the masteryIf what I hear is correct, the mastery rating is a mistake, and supposed to be spirit instead.http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124232/intu ... 0#comments
thoughts on this for fire/arcane?
Seems insane for fire, probably decentish for arcane?
Multiple trinkets are not flagged properly for classes and specs. Setting your filter to "All" on the vendor window will let you see all trinkets and items.
Source: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/3726 ... -trinkets/" target="_blank
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
Has anyone done testing yet with the 2pc Arc yet? It just seems it will give constant mana issues due to burning precious regen all the time.
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
I've a few questions for you Frosted. I'm curious how you go about burning with Archimonde trinket. Do you completely ignore all AM procs and just use supernova on crystal and then spam AB till the end of AP? Cause with using AM procs, if you're at all lucky with them. it seems you barely get to use the trinket bonus within that 15 sec period.
I'm also curious why you guys think the Frost version of Archimonde trinket is bad. At first glance i was like "holy shit this is awesome, 76% on Ice Lance O.o??" Is it because during burst you don't really get any effect from it?
I'm also curious why you guys think the Frost version of Archimonde trinket is bad. At first glance i was like "holy shit this is awesome, 76% on Ice Lance O.o??" Is it because during burst you don't really get any effect from it?
Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR
Currently you just burn like normal, except down to 0% mana instead of 50% with AP up.
Frost trinket is awful because it's a 0.9s buff for FoF after a frostbolt. You never get it during any FO/PC period if you do it right. So it's basically buffing only a subset of your ice lances - which are only like 20-24% of your damage to begin with. So you're losing out on like 400-500 static int on ALL your spell + whatever proc goes along with the trinket you choose to buff up maybe 10% of your damage by x%. It's just weak.
Frost trinket is awful because it's a 0.9s buff for FoF after a frostbolt. You never get it during any FO/PC period if you do it right. So it's basically buffing only a subset of your ice lances - which are only like 20-24% of your damage to begin with. So you're losing out on like 400-500 static int on ALL your spell + whatever proc goes along with the trinket you choose to buff up maybe 10% of your damage by x%. It's just weak.
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