[Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

[Raencloud]

This is just a thought but could it be possible that with the class trinket glyphed AP lasts too long for our burn phase? So we might gain a bit of AP uptime, but enough of it goes to evo etc that it's no longer worth it. I doubt I'm good enough with simc but checking how many AB casts are empowered with AP in both cases should tell us if that's the case.

I'm not sure where to look in simc reports to see that breakdown, but that does sound like a reasonable explanation in any case. Thanks.

[Frosted]

If you have the archimonde trinket equipped, the sim will currently burn until you're OOM if AP is still up. That might be why glyphing is a DPS loss - perhaps something has shifted with the changed profiles to emphasize mastery less, such that doing such deep burns are no longer acceptable.

The deep burn would never happen with the 15s AP.

[Eva]

If you have the archimonde trinket equipped, the sim will currently burn until you're OOM if AP is still up. That might be why glyphing is a DPS loss - perhaps something has shifted with the changed profiles to emphasize mastery less, such that doing such deep burns are no longer acceptable.

The deep burn would never happen with the 15s AP

So, is it safe to say that with the class trinket it's better to unglyph AP? Or keep it glyphed and hope for AM procs to keep our mana from dipping low?

[Frosted]

I have not done anything with modifying the default APL to better play around the trinket. For now, I would say unglyph until we learn more.

[Eva]

Makes sense, sims are always a guide we should not follow blindly, in my experience! I didn't get the chance to thank you for your work Frosted, I was reading your post for quite some time. Keep up the excellent work!

[Frosted]

Spec comparisons!

Single Target:

Frost: IN_ROP_PC, Prophecy/Tome
Fire: BW_ROP_PC, Gorens/Sethe
Arcane: UM_ROP_PC, Prophecy/Tome



Two Target:

Frost: UM_ROP_TV, Prophecy/Tome
Fire: BW_ROP_PC, Gorens/Sethe
Arcane: UM_ROP_AO, Prophecy/Tome



Three Target:

Frost: UM_ROP_TV, Prophecy/Tome
Fire: LB_ROP_KIND, Gorens/Sethe
Arcane: NT_ROP_AO, Prophecy/Tome



So, Frost now has a clear niche of 2targets. It absolutely dominates there. The T18 4pc buff added significant strength to the shatterlance trinket as well (which helps that 2target niche). I'm not convinced that we're even getting everything out of the 4pc for Frost either, so it could probably go up a bit from where it is here. Prophecy of Fear is pretty OP, honestly. It lets Arcane do things on multiple targets it probably shouldn't be able to do. But ./shrug, the melee trinket is also stupid. Maybe it's intended? Fire is firmly in the realm of AoE. The loss of the 2pc is huge for it and really shows what we saw early on in the Xpac; which was that fire is just a really really poorly tuned single target spec, and now is not even that good on cleave. If you're not doing real AoE (3+ targets), you probably don't want to find yourself playing Fire.

As an aside, I just updated all of the SimC general spec information threads in their respective forums for 6.2! If you want to check out talents/gear/stats/etc everything is there for all three specs.

[Chiv]

Hmm I haven't looked yet but is there many fights with 3+ on top of each other? Or will we see arcane / frost

[Vynestra]

Hmm I haven't looked yet but is there many fights with 3+ on top of each other? Or will we see arcane / frost

Don't think there is one fight with that, the council fight has two together 1 seperate iirc. I haven't looked at all of the fights in super detail, but most of them are ST with high priority ST adds from what I have seen.

[Frosted]

So, I figured I'd make a separate post about it so people know.

Currently on PTR, icicles are triggering Doom Nova. This is not modeled in the sim. We believe this to be a bug, and usually we don't model bugs. If it were to be modeled, it turns into around a 5% single target DPS gain.

Code: Select all

75921 100.0% Mage_Frost_T18H_icicle_doom_nova 72066 100.0% Mage_Frost_T18H

[jazzytwo]

Spec comparisons!

Single Target:

Frost: IN_ROP_PC, Prophecy/Tome
Fire: BW_ROP_PC, Gorens/Sethe
Arcane: UM_ROP_PC, Prophecy/Tome



Two Target:

Frost: UM_ROP_TV, Prophecy/Tome
Fire: BW_ROP_PC, Gorens/Sethe
Arcane: UM_ROP_AO, Prophecy/Tome



Three Target:

Frost: UM_ROP_TV, Prophecy/Tome
Fire: LB_ROP_KIND, Gorens/Sethe
Arcane: NT_ROP_AO, Prophecy/Tome



So, Frost now has a clear niche of 2targets. It absolutely dominates there. The T18 4pc buff added significant strength to the shatterlance trinket as well (which helps that 2target niche). I'm not convinced that we're even getting everything out of the 4pc for Frost either, so it could probably go up a bit from where it is here. Prophecy of Fear is pretty OP, honestly. It lets Arcane do things on multiple targets it probably shouldn't be able to do. But ./shrug, the melee trinket is also stupid. Maybe it's intended? Fire is firmly in the realm of AoE. The loss of the 2pc is huge for it and really shows what we saw early on in the Xpac; which was that fire is just a really really poorly tuned single target spec, and now is not even that good on cleave. If you're not doing real AoE (3+ targets), you probably don't want to find yourself playing Fire.

As an aside, I just updated all of the SimC general spec information threads in their respective forums for 6.2! If you want to check out talents/gear/stats/etc everything is there for all three specs.

This makes me so happy. I love frost, but I switched to fire/arcane for T17 for obvious reasons. But this just makes me warm and fuzzy on the inside.

[Rabona]

To my surprise I saw that the arcane and frost profiles share all but three items, so gearing for both shouldn't even be too much of an issue and I'm really glad to get rid of a T17-less fire spec.

Does any other spec (aside from Ele) like multistrike? Iirc Shadow's tier gives them a MS bonus, but afaik they value crit above all.

[Lavok]

To my surprise I saw that the arcane and frost profiles share all but three items, so gearing for both shouldn't even be too much of an issue and I'm really glad to get rid of a T17-less fire spec.

How much does it hurt frost cleave/aoe to have the set enchanted and gemmed for mastery thought? Changing these around frequently is not really feasible most of the time.

Edit: never mind this, managed to forget the haste part for arcane already

[Melkar]

@Frosted (and everyone else who is analyzing all of this)
Thank you veeery much for your work.
It is nice to see that Frost could be working again.
One thing is wondering me.. I believed Frostbomb would be the strongest choice, because of the "longer" 4pc effect. 12 seconds of Frostbomb + 10 Seconds of Waterjet sounds quite strong to me.

Regarding Trinkets, as you mentioned Melee-Trinkets. The Icicle-Interaction might be intended. Take Retribution and Empty Drinking Horn as an example. This is the reason they sim that strong, because its triggered by almost everything (and it even screws the whole statpriority lol). Looks like Blizzard wants gear to have a higher impact on PvE balance than normal.

[Festen]

Thank you frosted, what a good work.

I'm a bit confused with the haste for arcane but I have to read again your post and try to understand. Glad frost is good for 2+ targets, bored of fire.

[Namo]

How much does it hurt frost cleave/aoe to have the set enchanted and gemmed for mastery thought? Changing these around frequently is not really feasible most of the time.

You don't enchant/gem for mastery anymore but Haste. And Multistrike is superior than Mastery too ( not that much since we have "lot" of multistrike on our bis gear now) for Arcane now.

Frost MM (IN/RoP/PC):


Arcane scaling Factor HM:


Arcane scaling factor MM:

[Firepants]

So I was wondering about something. What will be the best spec when 6.2 launches with the current gear we have? Maybe bis gear from BRF without sockets and WF. Will we still play arcane for ST or go frost even tho we dont have the set bonuses and the new trinkets from HFC?

[Griepen]

Does haste reign supreme even when we get the legendary ring? Or do we go back to mastery?

[asd202]

Seems like Fire will be really weak in 6.2 compared to other specs.

[matchbox]

Seems like Fire will be really weak in 6.2 compared to other specs.

It was pretty obvious for quite some time, yeah.

[gameorg]

Is the current version of Simcraft updated already so we can do some work too? Because i have quite a few questions left and i dont expect you to answer them all!

@Frosted, are the respective Specs used in the simulations the highest ST of each?

Frostbomb is behind IN despite all the buffs to waterbolt? What about Thermal Void + FB?

The Cleave Niche for Frost was to be expected after the recent changes imho.

Why are the Sims Heroic?

So I was wondering about something. What will be the best spec when 6.2 launches with the current gear we have? Maybe bis gear from BRF without sockets and WF. Will we still play arcane for ST or go frost even tho we dont have the set bonuses and the new trinkets from HFC?

Currently, no you dont want to go frost for Single Target. Its behind Arcane in current sims, and it scales less. The 2 Target niche is interesting, but its not tht easy to equip for arcane + frost at the same time.