7.0 New Spell Suggestions

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Israfael
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Israfael Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:07 pm

Not really new, but:

a) Make all bombs accessible by all 3 specs, it'd give much more versatility and make mages 'masters of the elements' again
b) Tied to a) - snapshotting should also be back, it was way more fun like that
c) Critical Mass should be finally removed and its effect spread along several passive static % buffs to crit for better tunability and control.
d) Interspell interaction (in form of buffs a la Molten Core procs or just direct effects like ToSW) can be added for extra interactivity (remember BFF-lance?)

Pretty sure c) wont ever happen and we'd end up with defunct spec that would be only propped up by set bonuses that would eventually get nerfed :lol:
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nathyiel
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby nathyiel Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:48 pm

Not really new, but:

a) Make all bombs accessible by all 3 specs, it'd give much more versatility and make mages 'masters of the elements' again
b) Tied to a) - snapshotting should also be back, it was way more fun like that
c) Critical Mass should be finally removed and its effect spread along several passive static % buffs to crit for better tunability and control.
d) Interspell interaction (in form of buffs a la Molten Core procs or just direct effects like ToSW) can be added for extra interactivity (remember BFF-lance?)

Pretty sure c) wont ever happen and we'd end up with defunct spec that would be only propped up by set bonuses that would eventually get nerfed :lol:
I would have said that C and D are more likely to happen than A & B.

a) Shaman are master of the element, not Mage. I do prefer bomb separated by spec, reinforcing spec identity.

b) Snapshooting was a mechanism tied to how DoT was working internally. It promoted the *star alignment* gameplay that a lot of player enjoyed but resulted in monstrous burst possibility Who don't like bigger number ? They decide to change DoT to work dynamically to reduce this impact. The *star alignment* is still present but with a lot lesser impact.

c) I think this kind of buff might end-up as perk linked to the Artifact Weapon. I can be wrong too.

d) I think it's what is lacking the most. More interactivity/synergies between spell .
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Israfael
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Israfael Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:09 pm

1. For some reason the CM set is called 'of the triad' and colored in all three spec colors (blue, purple and orange), isnt it an indication of mage's mastery over the elements? In any case, there was no gameplay reason to remove NT for people that liked it (like me or Akraen for example)

2. As far as i remember, redotting with procs wasnt really worth it unless it was a multitarget fight
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nathyiel
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby nathyiel Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:16 am

1. For some reason the CM set is called 'of the triad' and colored in all three spec colors (blue, purple and orange), isnt it an indication of mage's mastery over the elements? In any case, there was no gameplay reason to remove NT for people that liked it (like me or Akraen for example)

2. As far as i remember, redotting with procs wasnt really worth it unless it was a multitarget fight
1. I was speaking in lore. Mage have school of magie. For the remove of nt forbother spec, it's called developper choice. The main argument, I think, was that mage aren't a dot class except fire but at the same time they keep the bomb.

2. MoP's mage optimisation was really about reaplying dot on some proc. But it was more bisible on other class.

------------

The more I think on what to change for Legion, the more I think of Frost AoE.
The 75 talent really mess with the rotation. There's no clear design as to when to keep the rotation and when to cast blizzard. The whole concept is strange: the normal rotation is also the aoe rotation.
It's not only limited to frost but the IL spam on Frost bomb isn't something to call AoE rotation.

Another problem I would like to see changed for Frost in Legion is the lack of mastery synergies with a few spell, specifically AoE but not only .
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Glitzerbling
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Glitzerbling Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:56 am

I've got a neat idea, although it's exclusively fire.

It is a passive and I'll just call it Dragon's Blood for the moment.

every Fireball, Inferno Blast and Flamestrike has a chance of 25% to procc a charge of Dragon's Blood. (scorch 12.5%)

you can have 2 charges of Dragon's Blood at max.

each charge of Dragon's Blood gives the next Dragon's Breath a DoT component, that lasts for 5 seconds per charge and does'nt break the disorient of DB. The dot deals 30% of Dragons breath dmg (increased by mastery at half efficiency of ignite) over 5 seconds.

If you proc Dragon's Blood, while at maximum capacity, you reduce the remaining cd of Dragon's Breath by 1.5 seconds.

The idea about it is to reduce the hyperscaling, by boosting the other spells a bit. but without breaking the rule of fire beeing half Burst, half burn.

now, why does it reduce hyperscaling? it works over Fireball and inferno blast for a single target rotation. the combination of both is less used at higher crit chances, as more and more get replaced by Pyroblasts. Now the tricky part is to balance it, so that it is strong enough, to flatten out the scaling, but not too strong, so you dont start spamming Fireballs over Pyroblasts. Also we dont want it to completely vanish come higher gear levels, right?

numbers are (obviously) debatable.
Flamestrike could have like 12.5% per target hit to proc it, so it gets more viable to use in AoE situations. maybe cap at 50% so it doesnt go too crazy.
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Curnivore
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Curnivore Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:22 am

RoP could be replaced with a mechanically similar spell (in terms of placement, quantity and timeouts) that instead of offering a flat buf, it gradually stacks a buf. Said buf can be later used either for an attack or to interact with other spells. Basically the intention is to make the spell more interesting and exciting because right now it combines people being annoyed managing it, with the dullness of not getting anything other than "do not get nerfed", while it would not disappoint those that want the challenge managing it.

This could be different for each spec. Fire's builds up a MegaBlast strike, arcane's fires an Arcane Beam Cannon, frost's triggers a Snow Storm, or whatever would be appropriate for each spec.

I was about to say a whole row of talents could have different types of RoPs but that might be annoying since it would always have to be used.
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Laodi Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:29 pm

Every suggestion with RoP "builds up something" is terrible imo. Because in the end you are more forced to stand in the rune then before. Imagine you need to reach 100 stacks of whatever and you gain 1 stack per second. So after 98 seconds there comes fire into the rune. What would happen? Do u stand inside of it for 2 seconds and say srew the heals or do you run out and recast and get the last stacks. Or better the mobs die when u reach 98 stacks. Forums will be full of claims that mages need an fighttime of exact 112.5+-33.5 seconds for RoP to be better then IF.
It has to be some permanent buff or it will never be taken.
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Curnivore
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Curnivore Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:58 pm

That's easily rectified. It could be useful proportionally, e.g. 90% of the effect of 10/10 stacks on 9/10 stacks. Also the stacks is just an incarnation, I thought people might find it more bearable if it was more active, it could just fire bolts while you're on it. :lol:
Glitzerbling
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Glitzerbling Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:55 pm

I think making the 90 talent row based around different incarnations of Incanters flow, that interact with your spec, could be a nice idea. (and mirrors back to baseline ;-) )
where you have like this stand still thing (but not a fuccking blue thing on the ground), a mobile thing and a defensive oriented thing, to boost your dmg output in waves.
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nathyiel
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby nathyiel Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:55 am

My opinion is that this talent raw should go out.
- They serve no purpose other than giving ~12% average damage increase.
- There will be a lot of new talent with pvp talent in a separated tree.

If look at what they do to gameplay :
MI is an aggro managmebt tool thag should be back to baseline.
RoP is here to restrict mouvement but it end up being one of the most *unliked* spell.
IF cicle too quickly to impact rotation efficiently. (Micromanagment, ...)
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Komma Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:00 pm

IF's gameplay problem has much less to do with cycle speed, than it has to do with how we're always attacking in PVE, and that we don't have much freedom in terms of spell choices. The highs and lows would also need to be much higher before we care to adjust our play around it. However, that also leads to very bad PVP consequences.
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nathyiel
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby nathyiel Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:19 pm

IF's gameplay problem has much less to do with cycle speed, than it has to do with how we're always attacking in PVE, and that we don't have much freedom in terms of spell choices. The highs and lows would also need to be much higher before we care to adjust our play around it. However, that also leads to very bad PVP consequences.
That's why I love the idea of the pve/pvp talent split.
It can give back spell like hard-hitting Deep Freeze (on freeze immune target), more bursty rotation or ignite play ; without fearing some pvp nerf.
Reverse is true.
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Imnick
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Imnick Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:57 pm

I don't see how a PvE/PvP talent split could ever bring back Deep Freeze as a nuke spell.
Deep Freeze dealing extreme damage to stun-immune targets was already explicitly excluded from PvP because players are never stun immune, it wasn't taken away due to PvP concerns but rather just because they did not think it fit the spec design very well.
Glitzerbling
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Glitzerbling Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:10 am

well, Arcane cant react to IF and Frost only with ffb. but fire can react very well to it and it's a noticable interaction. little benefit, but gives something to min max.

double the benefit and half the speed. lets hope for it :)
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nathyiel
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby nathyiel Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:26 pm

Yeah. Bad example are bad. We should focus on what could be cool to have.

What about an execute spell?
Execute are spell cast on low life target that kill it in a cool way.. Corps explosion in ice shard, burn to death or disolved into the nether. Disable in pvp and boss fight


Example of crazy idea for control spell:
Eternal winter: incase all target in ice and increase crit sensibility for 5s. Duration reduced on powerfull target.
Wall of Flame: enemy can't pass throught it and deal small damage to ennemi near it. Ally can pass throught it.
Black Hole: target in the zone are send to it center and receive small damage at the end of the effect. Effect reduced on powerfull ennemis.

Big damage single target CD:
Pillar of Flame: create a pillar of flame around the target. Deal damage over duration and radiate smaller damage around.
Time bomb: 10s duration. Copy all damage inflicted by you on the target over the duration and deal 20% of it at the end of the effect.
Artic blast: launch an ice missile to the target that explode on impact.

Aura/armor spell :
Why not merging armor and some of our spell like armor with point blank aoe in passive/active effect.
Molten armor + blast wave
Frozen armor + frost nova
Nether armor + arcane explosion.

AoE rotation :
Fire: living bomb (dot) + flamethrower (channel). As long as flamethrower is channeled, LB is refreshed and duplicate on nearby target in the flamethrower area of effect. The channeling can be break and resumed to extend before the end of any LB in the area.
Arcane: void zone. Create a mana pool on the ground that deal damage to ennemis in it. Casting arcane blast in it increase its damage and radius, refreshing its duration. Casting arcane missile in it colapse it in an explosion.
Frost: Blizzard reduce Frozen orb duration and last for 2.5s after the end of the channeling, if channeled for more than 2.5s, or the cast of a new blizzard. Blizzard stack FoF. Frozen orb auto-target blizzard location. At max FoF stack, it explode at its center (target are concidered frozen).
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Toshirou
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Toshirou Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:52 pm

I'll try to summarize my thoughts and feeling for the move forward into Legion

Lets start with my current raiding spec!

Arcane

First, I love this spec. The changes from MoP to WoD I felt were pretty good. Managing chages, and the burn/conserve phase coming back into play was really nice. There are some things i'd like to see changed though

Prismatic Crystal and Rune of Power- Do whatever you need to do to murder these spells...I HATED Rune in MoP, and i hate it now. Nothing says boring about being "planted" in one spot and basically an additional thing to worry about during an encounter to limit your mobility to the point where it's detrimental! I enjoy damage buffs, but with the evolution of raiding I feel as though we're going in the opposite direction with this talent.

Arcane Orb- I actually REALLY like this spell. It's great for cleave/AoE but I feel as though it doesn't warrant a spot on the talents list. I'd say Buff the damage about 5-10% and increase the cooldown a bit, possibly to 15 seconds. The utility it provides with the nice AB, AO to 4 stacks to continue your cleave/aoe is REALLY nice.

Supernova- This talent is particularly cool. I really enjoy lining up my novas to hit during my arcane power burst, and hit insanely high numbers. Hopefully, in WoD, we can see nova buffed a bit. Maybe make it baseline? Remove the charges, add a cast time, and maybe increase the CD a tad bit. It'd be REALLY neat to add a sort of buff mechanic that we have to maintain, sort of like the Shaman elemental blast idea

Nether Tempest- Make it base, our AOE isn't amazing. Having a small aoe wouldn't break us. You could nerf the damage a bit, or something along those lines.

Fire

Everything about this spec needs to be reworked. The damage is sub par, the RNG is too sporadic, and single target damage is something to be scoffed at.

Meteor- Pathetic damage, and the SPLIT damage is a slap in the face. Buff the damage PLEASE. The times that RNG has been in my favor, Meteor has SERIOUSLY given my ignite a very nice buff. Plus, how can you NOT want to hurl a giant meteor. I feel like a black mage from a Final Fantasy game and its badass. On an encounter based note, even if we weren't using it on the fire "burst" saving it for those CRUCIAL phases with adds that needs to be zerged down, Meteor helps out so much its ridiculous.

Kindling - The only redeeming talent in the tree. It almost always ends up being the best talent near the end/middle of an expansion. Why not make it a baseline bonus/perk/spell already? At the beginning of the expansion it'd be mediocre, but still a GAIN no matter what, and as the tiers went on it'd get progressively stronger. If it was a baseline ability, possibly nerfing it a slight bit would level it out so it wasn't SO overpowered.

Living bomb- SERIOUSLY. Do I even need to explain WHY this needs to be a baseline spell? Its probably the COOLEST fire mage spell next to Pyroblast and Meteor. Make it baseline, make a 5 target limit? (can be debated) and possibly nerf the damage a bit. Stop taking this away from us. Having this dot+HUGE damage helps us out in the long run for our single target damage. Make the splash damage possibly do a little less, but increase the single target damage.

Combustion- This spell is strong, VERY STRONG. The only downside is the potential that it could also be our weakest cooldown by far. One pull it could tick insanely high, another pull we might as well just whack the boss with our staves. Please rework this spell. Also, give fire mages a COOLDOWN of some sorts. Icy veins/arcane power sort of CD. Give us somethign that doubles our ignite for a short duration, or something that infuses us with the power of the molten powers we channel! Make it fun and cool!

Edit* I know i haven't suggested "new" spells, but my thoughts on our current spells/talents. >.<
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Chev Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:38 am

In summary, if it is an ability you don't like, it has to go. If you do like it, it should be baseline.

I disagree with that thinking. The advantage of this talent system is you get to pick abilities based on the fight you are doing rather than having cookie cutter talent trees that buffed or shortened the CD of baseline abilities.

Yes, there changes I would like to see made to existing abilities for Legion, but that is off topic for this thread so I will leave it at that.
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nathyiel
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby nathyiel Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:36 pm

Since mage won't have that much change in 7.0 (no big change), I wish that at least one talent tier will really be dedicated to AoE.

For Frost it could be something like that:
1) Improved Blizzard (passive) - increase Aera of Effect and damage frequency by 20%
2) Snowstorm - replace Blizzard. Same as blizzard but 1,5 cast/4s duration. -75% damage but +10% fof proc rate.
3) Tidal Wave - replace Blizzard. Welly become enraged, charge in to the target. It start then to pulse water wave around him for 10s. 30s cooldown.
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Curnivore
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby Curnivore Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:48 pm

Since mage won't have that much change in 7.0 (no big change)
Wait. What makes you say that?
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nathyiel
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Re: 7.0 New Spell Suggestions

Unread postby nathyiel Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:33 pm

In dev's communication following Legion presentation (twitter?), it was that that most class will receive some change but note to the extend of Hunter and Warlock.
It can be found on any site that resume Legion know information.
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