6.2.3 - Quick look at new trinkets

[Frosted]

Yeah, I should have been more specific - it's the proc rate / method that is not functioning (and therefore the uptime). What the trinket actually does (int/+demon damage/stats) is fine. You're right in that assumption.

[skiz]

Anything new regarding the proccchance? I.e. a correct value?

[MagusMaximus]

So, assuming the boss is demon, and I have only normal ToSW/PoF/UGoS, I should be using the new trinket and ToSW as frost for single target correct? And if it's cleave/aoe fight, I should still be using PoF/ToSW?

[skiz]

So, assuming the boss is demon, and I have only normal ToSW/PoF/UGoS, I should be using the new trinket and ToSW as frost for single target correct? And if it's cleave/aoe fight, I should still be using PoF/ToSW?

Short version - vs Demons - (after hotfix and keep in mind it is still mostly an assumption):
Frost, 1 Target: Orb of voidsight > any mythic trinket. = ToSW + Orb of voidsight
Frost, 2 Targets: Orb of voidsight >= default mythic trinkets. = Up to you.
Frost, 3 or more Targets: Orb of voidsight < default mythic trinkets. = ToSW + PoF / ToSW + Unblinking are both better than it. (Typically that is an addfight like mannoroth, xhulhorac, etc.)

As you have asked for normal trinkets: It is probably safe for you to pick Orb of Voidsight as your to go trinket for any Demon boss. If it aint a demon, change it.

More in detail:

Datamining on the trinket showed originally that it had flags set for 15% proc rate, 55sec ICD, 15sec duration, and 1.1 RPPM * Haste. On PTR it was behaving with the ICD & proc rate. It does not appear to be doing that now. That amount of uptime being reported is right in line with what you'd expect a 1.1 RPPM * Haste for a buff lasting 15sec to have, once you factor in bad luck protection and on-pull last proc settings.

from http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =10#p69404" target="_blank

1.1 RPPM * haste should have got hotfixed. So assuming 1.1 RPPM resulting in 60 / (1.1 * 1.13) ~ procc every 48 sec. 15/48 ~31% uptime. At this moment simcraft results are roughly on 31% uptime, too. However, I'm not sure how the procc is handled in simcraft. At this moment, I do think that the trinket proccs (ingame) on Spell_Aura_Applied / Refreshed and on spell_hit - not on dot_tick, nor on channel. But afaik the only dot/channel we do have is waterjet. Maybe even Frozen orb counts towards it.
= simcraft results should be okayish, if 1.1 RPPM is the correct procc value.

All sims resulting in a higher variance for Orb of voidsight. Mostly just higher max dps. Well, variance may be shit because of ~10000 iterations.

Frost Singeltarget PC + Unblinking gaze / ToSW ~ orb / ToSW is probably equal


Frost Singeltarget TV + Unblinking gaze / ToSW ~ orb / ToSW is slightly better


Frost 2 targets TV + Unblinking gaze / ToSW ~ orb / ToSW is probably equal


Frost 3 Targets TV + unblinking gaze / ToSW ~ orb / ToSW is behind.


Speaking of CMS + PoF combination: (That one is basically just slightly better than TV sims)
3 or more Targets = orb should be shit vs heroic PoF / ToSW.
1 or 2 Targets = Orb is better singeltarget and equal / very very slightly behind on 2 Targets. (vs heroic PoF). If you take PoF off change CMS, too.

Regarding PC + PoF = not a good idea.

Edit: if you want to sim yourself. Do use a nighty build. And be aware they didnt changed the version number for the last build.

[Curnivore]

Are those raid trinkets valor upgraded skiz?

[skiz]

trinket1=tome_of_shifting_words,id=124516,bonus_id=567,upgrade=2
trinket2=unblinking_gaze_of_sethe,id=124229,bonus_id=567,upgrade=2

Mythic, 2/2 upgraded on TV and PC sims. No warforged, no socket.
CMS + PoF is done with deltas, I do assume that nothing changes with itemlvl on TV + mythic Unblinking VS. CMS + heroic PoF. Deltas are from before upgrading stuff, and I just adjust TV sims with deltas to match Pof + CMS after itemupgrades. I.e. take sims from TV + mythic unblinking and add/substract some % Values. I've actually crashed simcraft with PoF + CMS sims some time and it usually deletes my results, which pisses me off. So I dislike to run those sims again. But I probably should do that some day. Edit: those deltas are roughly between +300-+1500 dps for 1-3 targets.

[skiz]

Btw. would like to know how 10% more damage on demons works with Pet & Prismatic crystal. I would guess it does not work on them ingame. If anyone want to test it, go for it. May also add some error to simcraftresults.

edit: nvm found the pc part in this thread somewhere. And pets shouldnt profit from % damage increase buffs anyway. (ingame atleast.)

[Curnivore]

It seems unfair PC doesn't let it work. I suspect a fix unless they find it hard to. The "it's not a demon" argument isn't a reason since they could make the buf more global about the player just working on demons indirectly mainly because the PC belongs to the player.

[Preheet]

PC isn't a demon, and it doesn't make sense for the PC distributed damage to be amp'd on the mob. (You don't Amp damage that is already amp'd)

Frosted I miss you <3

On another note, I would rather PoF proc on boss (w/ Voidsight up) and have PC down, spam AM into boss, and it trigger PC that way. I'm sure if that was the case, the trinket would be more useful. But I do agree that the trinket is useless as Arcane if your PoF is proccing on your PC.

[Alzer]

The origin of the explosion is irrelevant, you still want PoF to proc on PC.

[monkeyofdoom]

So - I've not worked this out at all - but any thoughts regarding the on-use haste trinket for Gorefiend mythic?

Obviously this is with rankings in mind as dps during feast of souls doesn't help the raid much.
But wouldn't the guaranteed trinket during the damage increase be a dps boost?
I don't have the 725 version so haven't tried it yet.

[Alzer]

If you have rankings in mind, you are prob better off praying for PoF luck.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=110003/rage ... us=642:760 would work better for what you are asking about though, haste on-use isnt particulary useful during BL, which is when you will be doing most of your damage on gorefiend.

[Wilderness]

Speaking of CMS + PoF combination: (That one is basically just slightly better than TV sims)
3 or more Targets = orb should be shit vs heroic PoF / ToSW.
1 or 2 Targets = Orb is better singeltarget and equal / very very slightly behind on 2 Targets. (vs heroic PoF). If you take PoF off change CMS, too.

So if you were using heroic PoF for these comparisons and it was slightly ahead of TV - which would put it about the same as Orb or slightly behind depending on the scenario - wouldn't that mean mythic PoF is probably enough to make CMS/M-PoF the best choice?

[skiz]

Speaking of CMS + PoF combination: (That one is basically just slightly better than TV sims)
3 or more Targets = orb should be shit vs heroic PoF / ToSW.
1 or 2 Targets = Orb is better singeltarget and equal / very very slightly behind on 2 Targets. (vs heroic PoF). If you take PoF off change CMS, too.

So if you were using heroic PoF for these comparisons and it was slightly ahead of TV - which would put it about the same as Orb or slightly behind depending on the scenario - wouldn't that mean mythic PoF is probably enough to make CMS/M-PoF the best choice?

Partly, but a correct answer is long and more detailed. PoF just works with Cometstorm decently.

If PoF works with TV => CMS outperforms TV in that case.
If PoF works with PC => it is either a lot of targets where CMS outperforms PC OR singeltarget where Unblinking gaze outperforms PoF.
If you do pick PC or TV => Unblinking gaze outperforms the current simcraft implementation of PoF (hint: pof is undervalued in simcraft for frost and partly overvalued in simcraft with pc. But those are small values and lets just assume that they dont excist.)

1 Target = Current PC implementation in simcraft wins against anything afaik. Really PC just wins by ~+5000 dps. (I do not know if there are any errors with PC in simc.) With PC : either unblinking or heirloom dont take PoF. Keep in mind for reasons no one uses PC (I dont know why, but I just joined the "no PC as frost"-club. I guess it just plays like SHIT.)
If you dont want to play PC on 1 Target, heirloom + TV > CMS (mythic) + PoF >= Unblinking gaze + TV.

Huge amount of targets = endless IV alias TV wins. Nothing else is competitive. This is Imperator Margok on mythic and probably Mannoroth IF imps do live a long time (i.e. dump orb inside, get reset of it via blizzard ~1 tick, and spam out INs). With TV it is usually unblinking gaze, however PoF may be the best choice here. Btw. probably even no class trinket.

4 targets until huge amount of targets = CMS + PoF beats anything. And yes a heroic PoF beats a mythic unblinking gaze. Maybe even get unblinking gaze + PoF here, but I doubt that.

1-3 targets = CMS + PoF heroic is equally to Unblinking gaze (mythic) + TV. So yes a mythic PoF should win here. But it isnt a huge difference. Probably below ~1000dps. There is a little problem with UM. UM buffs TV + Unblinking gaze slightly more than pof so that I cant really tell which one is better (on heroic pof vs mythic gaze).

One more thing about theorycraft: using Frostfirebolts during waterjet probably kills your dps by 1000, i.e. it is more evil to fail with waterjet than to play the correct talent (unless it is PC). Just look at "change" or "Mage frost T18" profile AND compare it to "changeFFBEarly", which is a silly hardcoded rotation that does "if FFB stacks = 2 => do use ffb during waterjet"


Realize that failing with waterjet is a more evil stuff than playing the "wrong" / not "Best"-Choice.
Lets *mentally* throw away theorycrafting for now and think about the gains of those talents / trinkets.

PoF = Huge huge huge huge randomness of doom. Decent procc of it during Archimonde in P2 with 8 Adds around? Gain 10k dps if you press cometstorm now. There is nothing that can beat that shit. You'll definitly smile if you do get such a procc. Having below 30% PoF uptime on a fight? You'll cry, cry and cry. It adds negative and positive rng. Furthermore realising that you kept CMS ready with a long procc downtime of PoF you'll cry. If you try to line every other CMS with PoF you may cry if you do have to much proccs of PoF.

Unblinking gaze of sethe = You do deal damage to voidfiends on Xhulhorac? You'll get a more "balanced" result from this one. But keep in mind if PoF proccs on one of those and you can toss Cometstorm into pof then PoF wins. You could also get a PoF procc on an add that is just dieing now. Furthermore the highest performance gain you'll get out of frost is to line Waterjet and frozen orb with encounter mechanics to alyways be able to kill adds correctly. Waterjet becoming ready while you need to deal an add that you cant cast your waterjet on it is the worst thing that can happen, if you got a frozen orb for that one you're mostly fine. With TV + Unblinking gaze you can fully focus on that.

TV = You got a fight with just 1 phase beeing dps relevant? You do drop Bl there? Well enjoy TV or probably even PC?

Honestly, I do just recommend to pick PoF on "high" add fights and maybe PC on singeltarget encounters and I would love, really love to see more PC logs for frostmages. But there is nothing wrong with using TV + Unblinking gaze OR PoF + Cometstorm.


TL;DR:
-Singel target PC + Unblinking gaze / Heirloom wins (both are equal if boss is demon)
-Singel target dont want PC? pick whatever you want to play and adjusting your rotation to encounter is the key. (heirloom + TV > CMS (mythic) + PoF >= Unblinking gaze (mythic) + TV )
-Otherwise pick whatever you want to play and adjusting your rotation to encounter is the key.
-PoF + CMS on ranking purposes because of RNG, i.e. procc into adds win
-PoF + CMS adds fun to your rotation.


P.S. I may cover some things I've already written down here: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... 460#p18789" target="_blank
And I've also not yet published my sims to that issue. Because it is math and math and math, and when I do write things here, I usually want to go away from math I just did IRL. (But I explained my approach in that link above)

Edit: Keep in mind that if the boss is NOT a demon heirloom trinket sucks. Heirloom trinket is basically the better unblinking gaze of seethe if the boss is a demon on low amount of targets.

[Curnivore]

In practice the cometstorm + PoF trick looks unreliable. PoF procs rarely or unpredictably, and Cometstorm has a long cooldown. In practice there has to be a long delay of casting cometstorm that I don't know if it's a benefit.

It might make more sense to use cometstorm on cooldown in most fights making the whole trick too RNG, meaning in most cases it would be unlikely to even have cometstorm available when PoF procs.

[Wilderness]

Thanks for the long write-up and explanations. It was interesting to read.

I would love, really love to see more PC logs for frostmages.

Maybe as people get bored in the coming months and push for ranks harder you'll see more of that. Personally the idea of trying add PC into Frosts T18 rotation makes me cringe and holds 0 interest for me.

[Curnivore]

I got that orb thingie today (finally) and went into an archi normal for the upgrade. I was disappointed to see an 18% uptime, most of it on the pull. The log is probably public too.

[Frosted]

Isn't that around normal now that the RPPM value no longer scales off haste?

[Searix]

Many of these trinkets are now BiS or at least fringe at least for fire:

Bonemaw's Big Toe, drops from (surprise!) Bonemaw in Shadowmoon Burial Grounds. Do note that it's very bad if it's not of at least regular 685 mythic quality, and that you cannot get this item as a mage when using personal loot. You'll want to aim for one with close to 725 base itemlevel.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=110012/bone ... us=642:760" target="_blank

He is referring to the on-use mastery trinkets, http://www.wowhead.com/item=109997/kihr ... us=642:760, http://www.wowhead.com/item=110018/kyra ... us=642:760 and http://www.wowhead.com/item=110008/thar ... us=642:760. These are much stronger than the on-use crit trinkets, and you can't use both of them so.

Source: http://www.altered-time.com/forum/viewt ... f=4&t=2060" target="_blank

[Curnivore]

It's not a viable plan hoping for them though in the near future. Their drop rate appears to be "you may get them eventually until the end of the expansion, maybe".