fire overrated post-patch?

[Andrestes]

Caveats:
First, I'm writing this for more casual players and to get some feedback. I'm sure the more well-read players will already know most of what I'm about to say. Second, some of the legendary gear stats I'm about to quote will probably change, and I haven't been working on sims, so I'm not sure how equal the artifact weapons are. Third, I'm not a great player, so I'm more worried about general trends.

Basically, I'm working on trying to decide which class to play for legion. I played arcane and frost in WoD, and settled on frost as I found it too hard to get consistent dps with arcane. Now, with the post-patch fire mage, my dps is way better than arcane or frost, so I can see why fire is so popular right now. However, after doing some reading, I think fire is a little overrated. Here are two reasons why -

1. Fire's Tome of Shifting Words works really well with the Flame Patch talent

http://www.wowhead.com/item=124516/tome ... bonus=1801
ToSW provides a 44%+ (depending on ilvl) chance of also hitting for flamestrike when fire blast is cast

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=205037/flame-patch
Flame patch provides a patch of fire that does AoE damage where a flamestrike is cast

this is pretty much free, extra damage to most players. I'm sure there are other reasons that fire is doing well, but I would love my ice lance or arcane missiles to have a chance to proc a free spell that also casts an extra AoE effect.

2. Fire has weak legendary items

I'm going off this wowhead http://www.wowhead.com/guide=4149/a-gui ... asses-mage list. As of now, fire's legendaries don't seem that strong for raiding

http://legion.wowhead.com/item=132454 Scorch deals 250% increased damage against enemies below 25% health
http://legion.wowhead.com/item=132863 Increases Dragon's Breath's damage by 100% and range by 25 yards.
http://legion.wowhead.com/item=132406 After consuming Hot Streak, there is a 20% chance that your next non-instant Pyroblast cast within 15 sec deals 200% additional damage.

From what I've read about the new fire mage rotation https://www.altered-time.com/forum/view ... f=4&t=2553, the scorch damage increase might be nice for a combustion rotation and the increase in dragon's breath will help on AoE. Perhaps, there will be spots for non-instant cast pyroblasts, too. It just seems that

http://legion.wowhead.com/item=132451 Arcane Barrage grants you 5% of your maximum mana per Arcane Charge spent.
or
http://legion.wowhead.com/item=138140 Your Ice Lance increases the damage of your Ice Lances by 10% for 3 sec, stacking up to 5 times.

would be significantly better.

Anyways, I might be wrong about all of this. I did really enjoy Fire Blast being off the GCD while trying out Fire. It felt really fast. At the same time, though, the big hitters from frost (ray of frost/glacial spike) or arcane's quickening might win out for me. Kind of exciting having a new world to play with. Thanks for reading.

p.s. so flame patch has already been nerfed some https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/ ... s-august-1, but I'm not sure how much. and here's the "currentish" tier 19 set bonuses http://www.wowhead.com/news=251264/legi ... bonuses-72 for those interested.

[Astaine]

you asked for feedback:

Point 1 has nothing to do with point 2 or with your opening statement, there is no clear angle you are tying to go down. Are you trying to say that fire is good now, but wont be in the future, it sounds like you are trying to say that the class trinket is good for legion. Which is ofc not true since you will not be using wod gear in legion. How is fire overated due to the trinket and patch, that transition from your opening to point 1 makes literally no sense, since you are claiming that patch is good, thus not overated.

the legendary argument is all right but not a strong argument. as mages we have incredibly strong mage wide legendarys such as the TW ring. Fire is good at the moment due to its scaling with its artifact, as well as its ability to deal strong burst and single target, as well as cleave, due to the changes to combustion and ignite.

tl;dr im not sure what your trying to say, your points are not clear and contradictory. if you are trying to choose a spec for legion don't focus on current trinkets and set bonuses since these will be irrelevant, focus on how the basic spec plays, as well as how the artifact may tie up your rotation.

[ardomur]

We don't think Fire is great in Legion, because of the Pre-Patch and how they dominate (other Mage specs) in HFC. We think Fire is great because of Beta testing and Simcraft!
Even without the Trinket and the Talent we would be playing Fire. The difference between the specs is just to big. (The next best Trinket isn't too far off)

Before HFC i last played fire during Dragonsoul and didn't really like it, right now it is my favorite spec in the whole game. Fortunately right now it looks to be great in Legion. If Blizz doesn't nerf it to the ground it will be my go-to-spec but i expect they either nerf Fire or Buff Arcane and Frost, because as it stands on Beta you only see fire specs.

[Andrestes]

@Astaine

you will not be using wod gear in legion

That's basically my point for the first part of my argument. Sorry for not being more clear. I'm saying that fire is overrated, right now, between the patch and when legion comes out, because of the synergy between the trinket and flame patch.

When the prepatch came out, I learned the basic rotation for all three specs and found that I was doing like 20k higher dps with fire than either frost or arcane. I got excited about fire, but when I checked out some logs and most of the difference was coming from flamestrikes and fire patch. I was kind of surprised, and thought others might be interested.

if you are trying to choose a spec for legion don't focus on current trinkets and set bonuses since these will be irrelevant, focus on how the basic spec plays

I know people always say this, and I think it's good advice in general. However, there are aspects of the rotations of all three specs I like. Since staying in pug raiding groups tends to require strong dps, I feel that the dps rankings might influence my choice a decent amount.

[Andrestes]

@ardomur

We don't think Fire is great in Legion, because of the Pre-Patch and how they dominate (other Mage specs) in HFC. We think Fire is great because of Beta testing and Simcraft!

Thanks. I wasn't sure how confident to be about the sims just yet. I also didn't realize that fire was so popular in Beta. Good to know and I guess it's time for me to start checking out some of the simcraft threads.

[Grumpdogg]

It's confusing, but this current 'post-patch7.0.x' period is generally referred to as 'pre-patch' - short for 'pre-expansion patch'.

But yes you are probably right in saying that Fire's current advantage may be a little exaggerated (compared to actual Legion) due to trinket silliness. If you are on the casual end of the scale, you should be fine playing any of the three specs in the appropriate content.

[Curnivore]

It might be also exaggerated because we don't know exactly how to rotate the other 2 specs. This is mainly contested when it gets to usage of active talents, during multiple targets, etc. Fire is for the most part unambiguous at the moment with any number of targets.

[Andrestes]

It's confusing, but this current 'post-patch7.0.x' period is generally referred to as 'pre-patch' - short for 'pre-expansion patch'.

Thanks, that makes sense. I was thinking it more as the pre-patch release was the old WoD, so post-patch would be with the Legion changes but before the expansion release. Completely understand the confusion now. I started playing in WoD, so this is my first expansion release. I'm pretty excited about it and likely over thinking things.

It might be also exaggerated because we don't know exactly how to rotate the other 2 specs. This is mainly contested when it gets to usage of active talents, during multiple targets, etc. Fire is for the most part unambiguous at the moment with any number of targets.

That's really helpful. I could see how clarity in the rotation would make sims easier, which probably increases the robomage dps. Guess I'll just have to wait and see how I like the artifact weapon before picking a spec.

I really appreciate the feedback. Thanks everyone.

[Beglen]

It looks as if you explicitly left out arguably the strongest legendary item, the exodar ring that is essentially a double bloodlust.
Flame patch isn't what makes fire the best spec out of the bunch, class trinket synergy is merely a coincidence and will not be there for too long, note that living bomb is still a thing in the same talent row, a crazy crazy good aoe ability.
The combustion burst window is unmatched across the board, rest of the rotation is simple and also full of instant casts giving the mobility edge to fire where frost had always been the mobile/instant cast type of spec and now it has 2 3 second casts with artifact and talents.
As of now, looking at sims, beta raid logs and just simply working out how the spec will work, fire does everything best wheter its ST, aoe or cleave. It is mobile and aesthetically the most satisfying(this one may be subjective)

In conclusion, one of your reasons doesnt make sense because why would a hfc trinket affect your choice post legion patch and the other one is missing crucial information.

[Thisgame]

Having played pretty extensively into Mythic+ on beta I can tell you that currently Fire is by far the most balanced and fluid Mage spec to play and definitely one of the most balanced casters overall. You definitely won't be beating people of similar gear by 30%+ on boss fights any more but Fire is still pretty solid overall. Definitely not top 3 like it is now, but certainly will get the job done. Its strengths are mobility and solid single target combined with solid aoe, with an above average cooldown stacking interaction with trinkets/combustion/RoP. Take all this into consideration and you will see that while you won't be a god like you are now, Fire is definitely the go-to choice in Legion for Mage specs at this time.

[Andrestes]

In conclusion, one of your reasons doesnt make sense because why would a hfc trinket affect your choice post legion patch and the other one is missing crucial information.

glad you read the whole thread.

more seriously, though, you seem to be pretty excited about fire and I was/am too. I just didn't have beta and was having trouble finding info on whether fire was just killer because of current WoD/Legion overlaps or if it was more warranted. seems to be the latter.

(also, I agree that the exodar ring is badass, but since it's available to all specs I left it out.)

[Andrestes]

Having played pretty extensively into Mythic+ on beta I can tell you that currently Fire is by far the most balanced and fluid Mage spec to play and definitely one of the most balanced casters overall. You definitely won't be beating people of similar gear by 30%+ on boss fights any more but Fire is still pretty solid overall. Definitely not top 3 like it is now, but certainly will get the job done. Its strengths are mobility and solid single target combined with solid aoe, with an above average cooldown stacking interaction with trinkets/combustion/RoP. Take all this into consideration and you will see that while you won't be a god like you are now, Fire is definitely the go-to choice in Legion for Mage specs at this time.

Thanks for the input. Primarily due to this thread, I've decided to start Legion with a fire mage as my main spec. I really like how fast and reactive it feels. I was mainly worried about putting a bunch of artifact points into fire before finding that short-sighted. Really appreciate the replies.

[ztranger]

No one knows about the future, at the start of WOD they buffed/nerfed classes during the first month of the expansion, so regardless where you put your points its going to be a gamble. Fortunately we will have time to level up the other artifacts as well before the expansion is over.

[Beglen]

In conclusion, one of your reasons doesnt make sense because why would a hfc trinket affect your choice post legion patch and the other one is missing crucial information.

glad you read the whole thread.

more seriously, though, you seem to be pretty excited about fire and I was/am too. I just didn't have beta and was having trouble finding info on whether fire was just killer because of current WoD/Legion overlaps or if it was more warranted. seems to be the latter.

(also, I agree that the exodar ring is badass, but since it's available to all specs I left it out.)

Yeah you are right actually the ring doesn't count then.

[lopstar]

I'm gonna go with 2 mages. One focusing on fire, one focusing on arcane.
Having no alts and not doing any splitruns or something like that in my guild, then it's my way to be secure i have a viable spec. Atleast if they don't nerf mages to oblivion.. who knows.

[Thisgame]

I'm gonna go with 2 mages. One focusing on fire, one focusing on arcane.
Having no alts and not doing any splitruns or something like that in my guild, then it's my way to be secure i have a viable spec. Atleast if they don't nerf mages to oblivion.. who knows.

I wouldn't do this unless you will be leveling both in tandem on 2 different accounts multiboxing, other wise it just isn't worth it. You will level up your AP gains quickly enough that it shouldn't matter by the time actual raids roll around, and that will be when they make major changes IF they are going to make major changes anyway. The way they do accelerated AP gains now you'll just be using up a TON of time doing what you're talking about for very very little actual gain. It's not as bad as you think(AP) is what I'm getting at

[Curnivore]

I was thinking that if a guild is doing split raids and the alt is mainly a funneling character, they could go with multiple mages because they have little to lose.

[Thisgame]

I was thinking that if a guild is doing split raids and the alt is mainly a funneling character, they could go with multiple mages because they have little to lose.

Sure. But again I just think the time commitment to actually maintain AP levels at the same rate early on is just going to be too much except for the serious no lifers. The amount of content to consume is pretty massive at the start compared to other expansions, imo. Having an extra character that is doing the bare minimum to funnel gear is one thing but having them both be on the same high level of artifact progression during the first month or two is going to be pretty brutal imo...If you wanted to keep them both at a very average artifact power I think that's doable but keeping them both world class would be tough.