7.1, Fire or Frost?

[Unity]

Ok so I'm in a bit of a peculiar situation here. I just started playing again with the release of 7.1 and powered my mage up to 110. I'm a retired hardcore raider so I'm mostly interested in Mythic+ dungeons/Mythic raiding.

Now with that being said, here's my dilemma: frost seems to be simming higher than fire (on single target at least) for 7.1 while fire has significantly better aoe capabilities and is somewhat easier to play. I understand frost has more micro-management but that's not really a problem for me. I just want to play the best spec possible atm (fotm if you prefer to call it that). Considering the blank state of my character, I can not decide which spec I should be pursuing/gearing for based on my goals. Going through top guilds mage's armories I've found a mixture between the two specs (which I'm assuming is mostly based on whether or not people have the AP/gear to spec frost).

Both of my artifacts are currently at 13 traits and I'll be unlocking my first artifact research level tonight, so any help on the topic would be greatly appreciated.

Just to note: both specs are fun, and I enjoy both. So don't give me the whole "play what you enjoy more!" routine. I'm strictly interested in min/maxing here

Thanks!

[Curnivore]

It's kinda unclear to me because frost with whatever it does on ST, is not very bursty which was always considered an advantage for priority targets and its AOE might not be great, while Arcane doesn't seem that great on ST either which is a problem for that spec since if it can't do high ST it might be at a disadvantage since it needs the most mana/CD management of all 3 and fire is good on AOE and probably barely reached the label of mediocre on ST this latest nerf (if you consider most minmaxers are still playing it so the logs could look worse than they do this week).

Maybe mage is just not op on any spec at all and the choice is not very clear.

[Thisgame]

It's kinda unclear to me because frost with whatever it does on ST, is not very bursty which was always considered an advantage for priority targets and its AOE might not be great, while Arcane doesn't seem that great on ST either which is a problem for that spec since if it can't do high ST it might be at a disadvantage since it needs the most mana/CD management of all 3 and fire is good on AOE and probably barely reached the label of mediocre on ST this latest nerf (if you consider most minmaxers are still playing it so the logs could look worse than they do this week).

Maybe mage is just not op on any spec at all and the choice is not very clear.

I'm surprised you find Frost not bursty. My priority damage has gone up considerably since switching over. You will almost always have a few ice lances to throw at a target where before you were basically stuck with a pyro or two and hardcasting fireballs between occasional low hitting fireblast. Phoenix Flames is a nice luxury in this regard but Phoenix Flames doesn't even hit as hard as Ice Lance and is much much less available on demand.

[Curnivore]

I mainly base it on the distribution of damage. Images are from the front page of simcraft on 7.1.

How Frost does damage:



How Fire and Arcane do damage:




Frost does damage in a more sustained way.

I guess it's more bursty at the pull nowadays but it doesn't seem to catch up to the other two.

[Unity]

So is there no real consensus on what is actually better at the current point in time? Playing both specs I feel like Frost's AoE is too underwhelming to be feasible for carrying your own weight in high level Mythic+ dungeons. Although the single target DPS may make up for it on boss fights.

Any thoughts on what would be better for my current situation? I'm probably going to end up being focused mainly on Mythic+ rather than mythic raiding.

[Mosl]

I think if the current situation stays the same, the decision which one is better will be made by the T19 set, since atm all 3 have their pro´s and con´s and because of the artifact weapon and spec specific legendaries I guess it´s hard to switch to other speccs in the moment.
This looks completly different once you reach the 35th point in the weapon (the +5% dmg), I guess than it is more viable to start leveling your second/third weapon on a equal lvl (and ofc you also have the artifact knowledge rising).

For mythic+:
I play fire myself a friend plays arcane for example, its very much situational which one is better. Arcane is pretty strong if done right in myth+. He plays an completly different rotation on myth+ bosses then on raidbosses, because he ignores the manahandling kind of and is ok with being oom, evocate and burst oom again right away, since the fight is over then, he blinks twice in the direction we go and starts eating to restore mana.

Then Myth+ also depends on the affix, fire has a autogleave which can´t be switched off, sometimes leading to more then one mob enraging(current ID) at the same time. Also the living bomb and dragon breath deal sick aoe burst withing some seconds, especially when the packs getting bigger and bigger he outclasses arcane by far.

So however in the end my friend and I end up with pretty equal overall dmg, while he often deals more dmg on focustargets and I deal more to "everything".

So for me is both ok atm and I got no exprience with frost atm to tell its strengthes exactly.
But for sure all 3 speccs are OK for the moment and depending on the lineup for the whole group, the affixes and the bosses(raid).

[carrybag]

Fire is perfectly fine. If you can't decide, just go fire.

Do not look at the simc page for a spec comparison.

[Vorrum]

Arcane will pull ahead with T19. Fire will get a slight bump up, and frost is likely the weakest of the 3.

[mart2090]

Arcane will pull ahead with T19. Fire will get a slight bump up, and frost is likely the weakest of the 3.

With no numbers or information your comment is literally worthless when currently it's looking that it may be the exact opposite of what you stated.

For OP, for now Fire is a pretty safe bet and the rotation and builds are tested tried and true. This may change in the next coming weeks but you won't have 30 traits in fire by that point and it'll be much easier to swap specs.

[Vorrum]

Arcane will pull ahead with T19. Fire will get a slight bump up, and frost is likely the weakest of the 3.

With no numbers or information your comment is literally worthless when currently it's looking that it may be the exact opposite of what you stated.

For OP, for now Fire is a pretty safe bet and the rotation and builds are tested tried and true. This may change in the next coming weeks but you won't have 30 traits in fire by that point and it'll be much easier to swap specs.

And I doubt whatever projections you are looking at are correct when arcane mages have just recently sorted out the most optimal rotation for the spec to cope with 7.1changes.

[yarafx1]

Arcane will pull ahead with T19. Fire will get a slight bump up, and frost is likely the weakest of the 3.

With no numbers or information your comment is literally worthless when currently it's looking that it may be the exact opposite of what you stated.

For OP, for now Fire is a pretty safe bet and the rotation and builds are tested tried and true. This may change in the next coming weeks but you won't have 30 traits in fire by that point and it'll be much easier to swap specs.

The Arcane 4 Pc makes this viable fyi you wont as mana starved anymore due to the CD reduction on Evocate.

[Jegermage]

Arcane will pull ahead with T19. Fire will get a slight bump up, and frost is likely the weakest of the 3.

If you have or aquire the legendary bracers, fire will not just get a "slight bump", the 4p would accomodate hardcasting quite a lot. ESPECIALLY considering you're only gearing for 1800 haste if you do not have the bracers. Once you have bracers, hastevalue rises a lot, and suddenly getting 30% of it when you pretty much have none is wicked.

[Tenzarin]

I looked into this myself eagerly as I awaited the 7.1.0 SimulationCraft release. Frost and arcane buffs make sense to bring those specs more inline.

I tested this by, going to wow head and leveling up an artifact weapon for both specs following guides and created a link to the weapons, I also only gave them 850 relics. Then I simmed myself as frost and arcane, changing gear after I got my stat weights. Even after optimizing gear the dps for frost and arcane was close to what fire was doing for me in the sim.

I don't really trust the sim for dmg numbers, I just use it compare items but I don't think even if you could just switch to frost and arcane and magically have 30 traits even believe that will make you a better player or do more dmg.

Again this is just my opinion, sim it yourself.

[Curnivore]

I don't really trust the sim for dmg numbers, I just use it compare items

You can't trust the one without the other.

[Saróx]

Arcane will pull ahead with T19. Fire will get a slight bump up, and frost is likely the weakest of the 3.

If you have or aquire the legendary bracers, fire will not just get a "slight bump", the 4p would accomodate hardcasting quite a lot. ESPECIALLY considering you're only gearing for 1800 haste if you do not have the bracers. Once you have bracers, hastevalue rises a lot, and suddenly getting 30% of it when you pretty much have none is wicked.

Explain why exactly hardcasting pyro is better with bracers than without? If you aint got the bracer proc your screwing yourself over by hardcasting?

[thrall]

Hi all,

I as well reroled mage yesterday and was surprised when checked the Simcraft. Looks like Frost outperforming Fire. So I am totally confused which spec to play at highest level. Will be doing Mythic Raids + Mythic+ dungeons. Will appreciate your suggestions. Thanks before hand.

[Falq]

Hi all,

I as well reroled mage yesterday and was surprised when checked the Simcraft. Looks like Frost outperforming Fire. So I am totally confused which spec to play at highest level. Will be doing Mythic Raids + Mythic+ dungeons. Will appreciate your suggestions. Thanks before hand.

To be honest it's really hard to say right now. Frost is the best on Single Target and Fire is good on Cleave/Aoe while struggling on ST a lot. Blizzard announced some changes which will affect fire spec a lot - secondary stats change and legendary bracers nerf. Right now to play fire as top raider you need either legendary head (to outperform other classes on AoE) or legendary bracers (to outperform other classes on cleave, catch up on single). If you don't have any of those, you may wanna start playing Frost (maybe with Fire loot specialization to have chance on those legendaries, but it's risky play). Everything is quite risky right now and it's rough time to reroll. Those changes may either repair fire spec, buff fire -> nerf bracers so they are not needed to do dps anymore or nerf it overall so even with bracers it will be useless. About secondary stats it's same thing, if they "change" them correctly, so our dps stays same fire will be doable, but if they fuck it up, we will end up being useless. Frost is safer choice, because nothing happens to spec, but fire may end up better after changes. Your choice Safe -> Frost, Risky -> Firy

[thrall]

Hi all,

I as well rerolled mage yesterday and was surprised when checked the Simcraft. Looks like Frost outperforming Fire. So I am totally confused which spec to play at highest level. Will be doing Mythic Raids + Mythic+ dungeons. Will appreciate your suggestions. Thanks before hand.

To be honest it's really hard to say right now. Frost is the best on Single Target and Fire is good on Cleave/AoE while struggling on ST a lot. Blizzard announced some changes which will affect fire spec a lot - secondary stats change and legendary bracers nerf. Right now to play fire as a top raider you need either legendary head (to outperform other classes on AoE) or legendary bracers (to outperform other classes on cleave, catch up on single). If you don't have any of those, you may wanna start playing Frost (maybe with Fire loot specialization to have a chance on those legendaries, but it's risky play). Everything is quite risky right now and it's rough time to reroll. Those changes may either repair fire spec, buff fire -> nerf bracers so they are not needed to do DPS anymore or nerf it overall so even with bracers it will be useless. About secondary stats it's the same thing if they "change" them correctly, so our DPS stays same fire will be doable, but if they fuck it up, we will end up being useless. Frost is a safer choice because nothing happens to spec, but fire may end up better after changes. Your choice Safe -> Frost, Risky -> Firy

Thanks a lot for a clear answer.