Player's Guide to What's OP in 7.1.5

[Haruichi]

Thanks for sharing these findings.

My point is - it's stupid to look at a chart comparing something disconnected from your reality. Ideally, you should sim yourself

Wholeheartedly agree.

but for majority of people, the advice of 'go with what your legendaries support' is sound and logical.

Agree, to a large extent. I would argue that the following advice is reasonably viable as well: If you have 1 Fire legendary, and you're mostly concerned with ST dps, you can go with either spec.

[Forminasage]

Returns 100% of your total mana over 6 sec.
Cooldown changed from 3 min cooldown to 3 min recharge
Charges changed from None to 1 Charges

Is this a tooltip/datamining bug, or did Evocation's cooldown get doubled?

[Makkish]

Returns 100% of your total mana over 6 sec.
Cooldown changed from 3 min cooldown to 3 min recharge
Charges changed from None to 1 Charges

Is this a tooltip/datamining bug, or did Evocation's cooldown get doubled?

It is because of http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=144274/gravity-spiral" target="_blank

[Haruichi]

Not sure what the point of Haruichis post is, but sims are going to be pretty far from reality...[...]

You're questioning the relevance of my post in the same sentence as you make the point that sims aren't reality?

Sim'ing is a tool to approximate live situations in order to help you form opinions about which gearing and spec choices to make.

Are you suggesting not to use sims and discuss findings?

An opinion of a guy who actually tested them is much more valuable than sim number alone.

Except, the guy who tested them might have different legendaries, different gear altogether, different ilvl weapon, different relic traits, and a different AP-level. Something that sims allow you to navigate and adapt to your own situation. To that end, tests aren't necessarily more or less valuable than sims. Both are tools with advantages and disadvantages in terms of helping increase your knowledge about what choices to make.

As such:

Not sure what the point of Haruichis post is

To clearify comments made in my earlier posts and to lead onto a, hopefully, constructive discussion about both Rikx's sims, Qooning's video, Qooning's sims and legendary trade-offs altogether.

[Mage]

To that end, tests aren't necessarily more or less valuable than sims.

They are more valuable. Especially when performed by a member of world #1 guild.
You don't have to agree, its OK.

[Haruichi]

To that end, tests aren't necessarily more or less valuable than sims.

They are more valuable. Especially when performed by a member of world #1 guild.

Valuable becomes a relative entity. If your profile is similar to the that of the player who carried out the test, then the test is probably a great framework for you to base decisions on. If it isn't - and when the profile is that of a top mage in the no. 1 guild in the World, it might not be - then there's a good chance those test aren't the best foundation for you to base decisions on. For one thing, different gear levels might cause fluctuations in relative stat weights. That's also why the only real meaningful, and by far the most used, answer to the endless slur of "should I pick x gear over y gear?"-questions is: Sim it for yourself.

You don't have to agree, its OK.

Yeah... just because you haven't come across all too well, the discussion doesn't end because you make a dismissive remark.

[Cakemountain]

Will data in first post be updated soon? Does the latest change to fire 2piece change its viability in single target to not be way behind frost and arcane? (Basically arcane because NH looks like it will be hard to keep up frost unless GS becomes good)

Except for arcane being horrible to play in mythic+, I like it. Would rather stay fire, but if that data shows fire as far behind on sims as it is then I can't consider it. I assume I will never get a decent legendary, but having worst in slot for all specs 1 and 2 means I can only get better.

[Mage]

Valuable becomes a relative entity. If your profile is similar to the that of the player who carried out the test, then the test is probably a great framework for you to base decisions on. If it isn't - and when the profile is that of a top mage in the no. 1 guild in the World, it might not be - then there's a good chance those test aren't the best foundation for you to base decisions on.

You don't get it.
My 889 equipped ilvl has nothing to do with whether I trust a Method mage opinion more than a patchwerk sim.
The reason I trust his opinion more than a patchwerk sim is because there are zero patcherk fights in NH.

[Haruichi]

You don't get it.

I don’t? I could have sworn…

My 889 equipped ilvl has nothing to do with whether I trust a Method mage opinion more than a patchwerk sim.
The reason I trust his opinion more than a patchwerk sim is because there are zero patcherk fights in NH.

What I do get is that you’ve changed your tune. What you did before was to make a generalized assertion that tests are better; without substantiating it, of course. That’s what I contested and, incidentally, the only point I put forth.

What you’re saying now is that you, subjectively, trust these particular tests more than Patchwerk sims – which, of course, is your prerogative. And something entirely different.

[Mage]

All my opinions are "subjective" (duh?).
Anyway, enough about this.

[Haruichi]

All my opinions are "subjective" (duh?).

Surely, you can appreciate the distinction between a broadswept proclamation: Tests are always better for everyone - which you claimed to begin with - and saying: I put more trust in the tests - which you remarked afterwards. Both are opinions, and thus subjective, but with one you allow for the possibility that one size doesn't necessarily always fit all and that you don't know which tool is best for everyone in every situation; which, again, was the only thing I contested.

[Falq]

I think this topic was suppose to be informative rather than being full of argue about meaningless things.

Since sims, apl's and other things need still some work because it's quite fresh you should understand what kind of numbers you are looking at.

For not experienced members I'll try to list main rules:

All specs should be viable, ofc fire will have better cleave, arcane ST so what spec will be better depends on kind of the fight

Fire need the most work to be efficient, but most of us mostly focused on this spec so it recompensate for this.

If you've been playing one of the specs, and enjoy it, have gear for it you can easily stick to it.
If you've been playing one of the specs and you wanna switch it let me state possible transitions:

Arcane/Frost -> Fire (very hard to make it work, fire need a lot of optimization, unless you want it for AoE heavy fight, it may not work)

Fire -> Arcane/Frost (possible, you need to catch up your traits, and get artifact ilvl asap but after this you should be doing same dps as fire, even prob more for ST, if you don't have BiS Fire legendaries transition will be even smoother)

Arcane -> Frost (basically same as above, transition possible, need to get ilvl and traits fast, you will loose legendary advantage (if you have one) but shouldnt loose much dps in the process)

If you start playing, and have nothing, you are prob better going Arcane/Frost since fire need a lot of optimization, and if you have Prydaz + Tol'vir you may not do much damage

[Rikx]

Will data in first post be updated soon? Does the latest change to fire 2piece change its viability in single target to not be way behind frost and arcane? (Basically arcane because NH looks like it will be hard to keep up frost unless GS becomes good)

Except for arcane being horrible to play in mythic+, I like it. Would rather stay fire, but if that data shows fire as far behind on sims as it is then I can't consider it. I assume I will never get a decent legendary, but having worst in slot for all specs 1 and 2 means I can only get better.

I'll be updating it probably tonight. Got swamped with random stuff this weekend.

And I'm pretty sure that in the post I made, I effectively said TAKE SIMS WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. Also don't take patchwerk ST sims as the last word in sims. I believe there's 0 patchwerk fights in NH after all.

My main point of this topic was to point out that, no the sky isn't really falling, and it's looking just fine to keep playing fire.

[Hansger]

Just wanted to thank everyone for putting in the work on this. I think a lot of players were thinking the worst when it came to Fire and the changes that are being made, it's good to know it's still viable in most situations and while I'll be raiding in Frost (just due to my legendary items...grr); Fire will still be my go to spec in Mythic+.

[Winkers]

I also want to thank Rikx for the work he did. No one asked him to do it, and he was the one who spent his time trying to assure us that Mages are "fine". Now, all we need is the frigging patch notes to verify the changes, and speculation can end.
I am hoarding so much AP, its tough to find anything in my bank / Bags. One more day of it...

[illwil]

I also want to thank Rikx for the work he did. No one asked him to do it, and he was the one who spent his time trying to assure us that Mages are "fine". Now, all we need is the frigging patch notes to verify the changes, and speculation can end.
I am hoarding so much AP, its tough to find anything in my bank / Bags. One more day of it...

Second everything said here(including the AP bag/bank issue). Thanks to everyone for putting in the REAL hours of work to help the community.

[Kintoun]

Based on findings from Rikx and Qooning it seems the TLDR is "your Legendaries will determine which spec you should be".

However I personally feel that there is no "right" choice for choosing a spec this early. We have decent indicators to what sims the best, but there is still a lot of unknown information:

• We're short on data for Arcane/Frost since nobody is playing those specs. This means APLs are not polished.
• BiS Frost legendaries were untouched by wave of legendary nerfs. Will they stay untouched?
• Not many know how the specs play in NH. As we saw with ToV Odin, Fire may sim top, but be trash on certain fights.
• Mythic+ is important too, but everyone is looking at ST sims.
• Fire/Arcane lost Ice Floes. Frost did not. Theoretically this should mean Frost stays closer to its simmed ST DPS. BiS Fire... is going to be rough without Ice Floes.

I'm personally going all in on Arcane. Fire is getting boring for me and I want a change. If Arcane isn't top, and the legendary system stays as it is, I'll just quit. I'm not interested in such massive RNG for doing top DPS. Legendaries == performance and unless I kill myself farming mythic+, I won't get BiS legendaries.

[Falq]

Based on findings from Rikx and Qooning it seems the TLDR is "your Legendaries will determine which spec you should be".

However I personally feel that there is no "right" choice for choosing a spec this early. We have decent indicators to what sims the best, but there is still a lot of unknown information:

• We're short on data for Arcane/Frost since nobody is playing those specs. This means APLs are not polished.
• BiS Frost legendaries were untouched by wave of legendary nerfs. Will they stay untouched?
• Not many know how the specs play in NH. As we saw with ToV Odin, Fire may sim top, but be trash on certain fights.
• Mythic+ is important too, but everyone is looking at ST sims.
• Fire/Arcane lost Ice Floes. Frost did not. Theoretically this should mean Frost stays closer to its simmed ST DPS. BiS Fire... is going to be rough without Ice Floes.

I'm personally going all in on Arcane. Fire is getting boring for me and I want a change. If Arcane isn't top, and the legendary system stays as it is, I'll just quit. I'm not interested in such massive RNG for doing top DPS. Legendaries == performance and unless I kill myself farming mythic+, I won't get BiS legendaries.

Rikx is playing frost himself so that's why frost is performing the best in his sims, because he knows this best.

Frost will sim top because it's very stationary and hard to play spec

Also Frost got shimmer and Ice Floes on same tier so its mobility got hurt aswell

[pleblius]

I think it's kind of jacked up that the answer seems to always be, "Follow your legendaries." Since I've got zero throughput ones.

I've given up on Fire. It's kind of boring right now, and I don't want to need two more legendaries just to be viable.

It seems that everybody's supporting Arcane as the non-Fire spec right now. Any particular reason for this? Frost doesn't seem particularly difficult, although I see how Arcane looks much more forgiving now. Is it just because of RNG if you don't have the gloves?

[rap87]

I tell you this Legendary system that gives dps along with the freaking Paragon DPS increases really makes figuring out how to optimally plan a real PITA. I miss the days where you just could play two specs and the worst you might have is some sub optimal trinkets, or a need to reforge for one of them... And even at that usually the 2nd spec you might play on a fight would be so good for that fight it wasn't a big deal. With the above Legend/Trinket it really is way worse trying to min/max that sort of thing.

Anyhow, over at MMO Champion I saw this chart taken from Mage Discord:



Is this inaccurate?

My basic question was if you had Helm/Belt, it would seem feasible to just play RNGJesus and hope for the Bracers to drop according to those numbers, but I've seen hints in this thread of my real concern and that is if you only have one good Fire Legendary...Arcane is going to be so good to just switch loot spec Arcane right away and only play Fire for Mythic+s and a heavy AoE fight...although that Paragon system throws a wrench in simplicity with the +DPS increases...Lexi from Method seemed to be hinting at this in his guide as well.

Blizzard really f'ed up on this DPS = RNG nonsense...much better that performance to skill is more apparent honestly.