7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

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Zulandia
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7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Zulandia Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:24 am

TL:DR
Don't really care about all that number nonsense? Just want to know who the belle of the ball is to get your raid lead off your back?
  • Frost is the clear winner single target/Priority target/2 Target cleave/Light occasional AoE. GS versus TV will come down to your personal gear/play style/preference as well as the fight style as both are very close together
  • Arcane is the king of burst AoE, if AP lines up well with the frequency and duration of adds no one will be able to touch you
  • Fire wins sustained aoe
  • If you are maining a single spec and want to be as strong as possible play frost. All three specs have uses in ToS if you will be multi-speccing
  • All three specs are viable as your sole ToS spec if you wish to main something else
T20M Spec Comparisons
Please note this thread has not yet been updated to reflect the 3% hotfixes. Nothing fundamentally changes however the gaps just shrink. A full update should be out some time early in the weekend of the 24th once raiding is out of they way

Single target/default profile & talents used for single target. Swapped to AoE builds for aoe fights (frostGS=2033032, frostTV=2033031, fire=2021032, arcane=1023031)
Single Target
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Two Target Sustained
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Four Target Sustained
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Four Target Short Add Phases/AoE Burst
3 Additional adds join the fight every minute and live for 20 seconds (single target between adds)
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Ten Target Short Add Phases/AoE Burst
9 Additional adds join the fight every minute and live for 20 seconds (single target between adds)
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Two Legendary T20M Spec Comparisons
Single target/default profile & talents used for single target. Swapped to AoE builds for aoe fights (frostGS=2033032, frostTV=2033031, fire=2021032, arcane=1023031). Legendaries are unchanged.
Single Target
Image
Two Target Sustained
Image
Four Target Sustained
Image
Four Target Short Add Phases/AoE Burst
3 Additional adds join the fight every minute and live for 20 seconds (single target between adds)
Image
Ten Target Short Add Phases/AoE Burst
9 Additional adds join the fight every minute and live for 20 seconds (single target between adds)
Image
Notable Changes from Live
Also known as "WoWhead/Preach/<x> said I was getting buffed?"
All Specs
Arcane
Fire
Frost
Flurry Change
  • The removal of the initial delay (and to a lesser extent the change of travel time) means that glacial spike can now reliably be shattered at most ranges without the use of shimmer. This is a large indirect buff to glacial spike.
  • For most practical purposes DOUBLE ICE LANCING IS DEAD
    • Shimmerlancing is still possible
    • Stand still double ice lances are completely dead
    • Full speed forward running lances can be successful in very specific circumstances (window is extremely tight/execution must be perfect and the viable ranges are limited)
    • The dps benefit even when successful is reduced due to thermal void nerf
    • Due to the steep penalty of failure and minimal gain I would strong advise against attempting double IL outside shimmerlances in a raid settings as you will almost certainly end up lower dps than without (in most circumstances the gain from shimmerlancing will be small enough that you are better to save them for mechanics as well)
Bug Fixes
  • Ice time's frost nova no longer procs Sephuz's secret if the CC component fails
  • Time and Space no longer procs arcane missles
New/Unfixed Bugs
Appendix
[/b]

The full HTML report for each simulation in this thread (along with the profiles used to generate them) can be found at the following dropbox link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/248yj47cu87p ... D0Eea?dl=0

Unless otherwise specified the following fight parameters were used with the T20M default profiles/APLs:

Code: Select all

enemy=e1 fixed_time=1 max_time=450 vary_combat_length=0.2 target_race=demon iterations=10000 race=orc firestarter_time=25 single_actor_batch=1
With the numbers of enemies/iterations increased as needed.
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Zu
Zulandia
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Zulandia Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:25 am

How Does this Look As I Gear Up?
Tier 20 Effects Only
These profiles have T20 equipped for stats. Only the actual effects are enabled/disabled
Image
Likely underestimated while APL is in development*
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Image
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Tier 19M NH
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Tier 19M NH Scaled to 915
A more reasonable estimation of mythic raiders at this stage with a good deal of WF gear
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T19/T20 Mix
Picked up T20 and Tarnished Sentinel Medallion
Image
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Oriyuna
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Oriyuna Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:31 am

Are you trying to tell me that Preach lied!!!! How dare you sir.

Just kidding, nice work on this. Great summary and details here!
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Pathelon
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Pathelon Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:31 am

Nice guide well written. Thanks!!!
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Salus
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Salus Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:38 am

No spec is unviable as your sole ToS spec if you wish to main something else
2 quibbles.

First, this could be worded better. Perhaps "All specs are viable for ToS." I believe this is what you're trying to say, but I'm not sure.

Second, 20%+ behind for fire strikes me as not viable. Where is the line for "viable?" Better DPS than the tanks means viable? Personally, I would steer anyone who asked my opinion away from fire. Barring further action from Blizz, it seems like anything-but-Fire is a safer recommendation.
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Muffelmage
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Muffelmage Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:56 am

Quick! Give this guy a medal!
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Katsumi
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Katsumi Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:36 am

Amazing work, greatly appreciated.

Regarding TV vs. GS - did you happen to look into the impact of having the appropriate relics in your weapon? I imagine you'd really want 3x FB for GS.

edit:// Never mind, just found the update in the GS guide.
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Dakodai
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Dakodai Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:09 am

Amazing work, thank you so much! ;)
<Inspiring life quote>
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Ionchannel
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Ionchannel Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:12 am

Took the time to register just to thank you for this post. I tried to sim some things myself on the 7.2.5 but was a bit overwhelemd by al the different options/legendary choices/builts :D

So a big thanks to you.
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Alessy
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Alessy Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:32 pm

Sorry for being retarded, but do you have any sims for different legendaries? The sims posted in this thread aren't a lot to go off of since you didn't specify exactly what legendaries you were using. Again, sorry.

Don't hurt me.

Thanks a lot for this thread though!

EDIT: Nevermind what I said. https://www.altered-time.com/forum/view ... f=2&t=3827" target="_blank if you're curious.
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Eyliria
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Eyliria Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:55 pm

No spec is unviable as your sole ToS spec if you wish to main something else
2 quibbles.

First, this could be worded better. Perhaps "All specs are viable for ToS." I believe this is what you're trying to say, but I'm not sure.

Second, 20%+ behind for fire strikes me as not viable. Where is the line for "viable?" Better DPS than the tanks means viable? Personally, I would steer anyone who asked my opinion away from fire. Barring further action from Blizz, it seems like anything-but-Fire is a safer recommendation.
He's being technically correct. You can still probably complete the instance as Fire being part of a guild, and it will average things out, but, you'll definitely be carried by the higher performing specs.

So far we haven't seen any massive DPS Checks in ToS that would force a mage to go out of Fire in order to beat it. Krosus, and then Augur were big driving forces in Nighthold.

Awesome compilation of the data. It's good to see what we're dealing with here. Hopefully it's also used to point out the Fire deficiencies.

Good to see the gap between Arcane and Frost narrowing a bit, and Frost is just great fun and very viable to boot -- the Flurry change injected new life into Glacial Spike, who had fallen from grace with all the new artifact traits that didn't buff it nearly as much as it did for TV.

A+, Zulandia.

pS: Does anyone have any hard data on the Whispers in the Dark scaling change?
WoWhead is crapping itself (the scaling is wildly wrong), and WOWDB is totally checked out (just shows 0%)
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Py
Pyroni
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Pyroni Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:45 pm

I have some questions, which Legys did you sim them with?

And is there actualy a stat prio for GS build right now?
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Eyliria
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Eyliria Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:09 pm

And is there actualy a stat prio for GS build right now?
This one I can help with. Stat priorities are not something that usually get posted because they are very much influx based on your current gearing -- so simming yourself will always yield the best results.

However, with that said, at higher levels of gear (think 905+), it seems that Intellect is the worst, Crit is the best (until shattercap), followed by Versatility and Mastery roughly on the same level, and Haste afterwards, or, for short:

Crit (til cap) > Vers ~= Mastery > Haste > Int.

As usual, SIM YOSELF for best results.
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Zu
Zulandia
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Zulandia Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:40 pm

pS: Does anyone have any hard data on the Whispers in the Dark scaling change?
WoWhead is crapping itself (the scaling is wildly wrong), and WOWDB is totally checked out (just shows 0%)
SimC can query it no issues you could go that route (either sim with it on a 7.2.5 client then check values under buffs or use spell query).
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davesignal
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby davesignal Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:46 pm

I wonder what sort of creative ways the mastery snapshotting on Arcane Charges might be useful..

Also, I'm shocked that the T20 4P is so ineffectual for Arcane. Guess I'm going to be pugging heroic NHs for awhile hoping for lucky titanforges.
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Zulandia
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby Zulandia Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:58 pm

Also, I'm shocked that the T20 4P is so ineffectual for Arcane. Guess I'm going to be pugging heroic NHs for awhile hoping for lucky titanforges.
It's likely being slightly undervalued by the APL as it stands.
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reforge
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby reforge Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:50 am

This post here is why I love and appreciate the community of the class I play. Thanks for the post AT.
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tar3k
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby tar3k Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:22 am

Well i can't thank you enough, i think it is better to wait for the first week before deciding which spec to stay with.
Thank you again and again.
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carbon14c
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby carbon14c Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:57 am

Great post, thanks for putting it together.
Genxis/Tenfold/Sargeras
Armory / WCLog / WowProg
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kickassZA
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Re: 7.2.5 PTR 'Round-up'

Unread postby kickassZA Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:49 am

Brilliant*
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