Arcane power glyph vs no glyph

[oomy]

Sorry if this has been answered.

Any guideline on when to use this / If it's a dps increase or any sims?

[Chev]

Someone asked this yesterday. http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... 998#p10998" target="_blank

In short, unless you can plan your fight well, stick with the glyph.

[Wilderness]

In short, unless you can plan your fight well, stick with the glyph.

Exactly this. Glyphed and unglyphed will be the same - neither is better than the other - except that if you don't glyph it fight times can cause you to lose 1 use of AP, which would then be worse than glyphed. So unless you know your kill times with good certainty, then just stick to the glyph. Its not like we have a bunch of other glyphs that are really good that we're trying to make a spot for either.

[Preheat]

I think it's been said before, but I always glyph arcane power if I will have lust on the pull. As far as the correct choice? depends on how long the fight will last, your playstyle, and your guild's strat.

Keep in mind you can increase AP uptime if you can ballpark the time to kill a boss. Keep in mind that uptime doesn't always equal more overall damage though.

For example:

Fight begins
0.0 - 0.06 (getting to 4 stacks)
0.06 - start (1)
0.36 - end
3.06 - start (2)
3.36 - end
Fight ends - 3mins 36seconds

2*.30 = 60seconds of arcane power

Fight begins
0.0 - 0.06 (getting to 4 stacks)
0.06 - start (1)
0.21 - end
1.36 - start (2)
1.51 - end
3.06 - start (3)
3.21 -end
Fight ends - 3mins 36seconds

3*.15 = 45seconds of Arcane power

Just something to consider.

[Wilderness]

I think it's been said before, but I always glyph arcane power if I will have lust on the pull. As far as the correct choice? depends on how long the fight will last, your playstyle, and your guild's strat.

Keep in mind you can increase AP uptime if you can ballpark the time to kill a boss. Keep in mind that uptime doesn't always equal more overall damage though.

You can't increase AP uptime of an unglyphed AP to anything more than you get out of a glyphed AP. The best case scenario is that you have the same uptime. The worst case scenario is that you lose AP uptime if you don't glyph. I'm not sure how playstyle or a guild's strat would have much of an impact on if you glyph it or not. The fight duration is the main factor. If you know that the fight length won't impact your AP uptime then it doesn't matter, but during progression and your first few kills at least, you aren't going to have reliable enough knowledge to know, outside of a fight with a short enrage timer like Butcher.

[oomy]

Ahh ok, thanks for the replies. Recent posting that i skimmed over, i did ask before in that thread but never got a reply

[Preheat]

You can't increase AP uptime of an unglyphed AP to anything more than you get out of a glyphed AP. The best case scenario is that you have the same uptime. The worst case scenario is that you lose AP uptime if you don't glyph. I'm not sure how playstyle or a guild's strat would have much of an impact on if you glyph it or not. The fight duration is the main factor. If you know that the fight length won't impact your AP uptime then it doesn't matter, but during progression and your first few kills at least, you aren't going to have reliable enough knowledge to know, outside of a fight with a short enrage timer like Butcher.

It's a given that unglyphed arcane power will never result in more uptime. I thought this was apparent in my example, but maybe I should have clarified?

Either way I can think of situations that might make you reconsider the glyph. I'll give you a few examples:
1. A flight with heavy movement every 15 seconds
2. An add that needs to be focused down every min and a half.
3. Boss that takes increased damage in short intervals.
4. A heavy aoe fight that blink is useful for. (question of glyph choice)

I'm not saying these examples are taken directly from highmaul, but instead regarding the glyph in general. I feel it's too early to say the glyph has no impact outside of fight duration (although I agree that currently fight duration is the main factor). Even if it's only a small niche I can see unglpyphed Arcane power being useful in the future.

[Wilderness]

Your example did state show how unglyphing could be worse, but perhaps I misread your statement about uptime in thinking it was implying that you could somehow gain AP uptime vs being glyphed.

You're right about some of those mechanics possibly making unglyphed a better choice - something like heroic Spine where you'd want it up for every tendon would be a good example. I wasn't trying to imply that mechanics or strat never had an impact, just that its rather uncommon. Those type of mechanics aren't found in Highmaul at the moment, and a few of them (heavy movement every 15 seconds, heavy aoe fight in which blink is useful - we can glyph AP/double blink/AE) wouldn't make me question glyphing AP, it would make question why I'm playing Arcane for that fight over Fire or Frost which is probably better suited.

[Trustbucket]

You can't increase AP uptime of an unglyphed AP to anything more than you get out of a glyphed AP. The best case scenario is that you have the same uptime. The worst case scenario is that you lose AP uptime if you don't glyph. I'm not sure how playstyle or a guild's strat would have much of an impact on if you glyph it or not. The fight duration is the main factor. If you know that the fight length won't impact your AP uptime then it doesn't matter, but during progression and your first few kills at least, you aren't going to have reliable enough knowledge to know, outside of a fight with a short enrage timer like Butcher.

It's a given that unglyphed arcane power will never result in more uptime. I thought this was apparent in my example, but maybe I should have clarified?

Either way I can think of situations that might make you reconsider the glyph. I'll give you a few examples:
1. A flight with heavy movement every 15 seconds
2. An add that needs to be focused down every min and a half.
3. Boss that takes increased damage in short intervals.
4. A heavy aoe fight that blink is useful for. (question of glyph choice)

I'm not saying these examples are taken directly from highmaul, but instead regarding the glyph in general. I feel it's too early to say the glyph has no impact outside of fight duration (although I agree that currently fight duration is the main factor). Even if it's only a small niche I can see unglpyphed Arcane power being useful in the future.

You're ignoring the bonus synergy with PC and unglyphed AP which is why people consider dropping the glyph in the first place. Also dropping the glyph shortens the burn phases which can be very helpful when trying to do consistent damage, because delaying evo from a lot of missile procs can screw up future cooldowns.

[Wilderness]

The "bonus synergy" isn't being ignored - its not something extra that you get - that's what counterbalances the longer burn phases with the glyph and gives both of them equal dps. People like to focus on stacking CDs together, but that's all accounted for when sims are run that show glyphed and non-glyphed doing the same overall dps.

I'm not sure how having to delay Evo because of good AM RNG is a bad thing. Yes, it will delay future CDs, but that's because you are extending a burn phase for a long time. Burn phases are our best dps, so more of it is a good thing. If that means you miss out on CDs at the very end of a fight b/c of a longer burn, that's not necessarily a bad thing as you got more of a burn up front already - and, that would require some pretty specific knowledge and fight times. It would have to be a fight length where unglyphing it is possible without losing AP uptime, and then you'd have to know exactly what that kill time would be, and then you'd have to have that longer burn cut off CDs. I don't think that's a situation you can be sure of except during a farm boss that you've killed for some time, not something you'd know during progress. I'd also argue that more front-loaded damage with the glyph and longer burn phases is better for progress, as it pushes you deeper into the fight and lets you see more of it sooner.

I'm not saying that it should never be unglpyhed, because that's not true. But you need to be certain of your kill times, or you need a fight mechanic that needs more frequent burst dps, for that to be worth it. Unglyphing when you don't know exactly what your kill time will be, for no other reason than you like to sync it with PC, is just risking losing out on uptime for no additional gains.

[Trustbucket]

You don't think having more AP uptime with a 1.4x multiplier is a good thing? And yeah burn phases are more damage than conserve phases obviously but it would be much better to get a lot of AM procs when you're at full mana instead of your burn phase where you are trying to get evo on CD ASAP so you can use it again sooner. Not sure which sim you are looking at but it really depends on the timeframe the sim is run at and how much variation. If you're getting more uptime on AP from running the glyph on some of the sims and the same others you will probably not see a difference in dps from the two choices.

[Wilderness]

You don't think having more AP uptime with a 1.4x multiplier is a good thing? And yeah burn phases are more damage than conserve phases obviously but it would be much better to get a lot of AM procs when you're at full mana instead of your burn phase where you are trying to get evo on CD ASAP so you can use it again sooner. Not sure which sim you are looking at but it really depends on the timeframe the sim is run at and how much variation. If you're getting more uptime on AP from running the glyph on some of the sims and the same others you will probably not see a difference in dps from the two choices.

Of course, looking at it in a vacuum having more AP uptime at 1.4 multiplier is a good thing. Logically, syncing PC with each AP would seem to be a good thing too. But those are feelings, not actual data. Everything I've seen, on here and in my own sims, is that as long as the fight duration doesn't cut out 1 use of AP when you un-glyph it (which would obviously making not glyping a bad choice, such as on Butcher) then glyphed vs unglyphed come out to be the same. There's no difference.

So - if there's no difference, except that fight length might screw you, then why would you ever not glyph? Obviously fight mechanics, such as needing to burn something quickly every 90 seconds, would change that, but we're not talking very specific fights that don't come up often, we're just talking about general good practices. If you glyph, you get maximum uptime. If you don't glyph, and the fight length is fine, then you get the same uptime. All you get by not glyphing is the chance that your uptime will be worse. You gain nothing, but risk doing worse. So why not glyph?

[Safonz]

And I am by no means as much of a sim crafter or theory crafter as some on this forum but need some clarity from someone

I totally understand and agree with the argument about glyphed AP being = or better always than unglyphed when it comes to AP uptime. However my thoughts would be dmg done within those limits if they are equal in uptime. So for the sake of this discussion, assume that AP uptime is equal based on fight length

When thinking about mana levels during glyphed AP and unglyphed AP, there is a big difference.

Unglyphed burn phases, I usually have 75%mana+ after phase, sometimes don't even need to Evo because im sitting at 90%+ based on AM procs.
Glyphed burn phases however, i can rarely keep above 50% mana by the end of the duration.

I would welcome an argument on how the difference in mana can be treated as a fixed variable like people have in most of the discussions on this topic

[Trustbucket]

You don't think having more AP uptime with a 1.4x multiplier is a good thing? And yeah burn phases are more damage than conserve phases obviously but it would be much better to get a lot of AM procs when you're at full mana instead of your burn phase where you are trying to get evo on CD ASAP so you can use it again sooner. Not sure which sim you are looking at but it really depends on the timeframe the sim is run at and how much variation. If you're getting more uptime on AP from running the glyph on some of the sims and the same others you will probably not see a difference in dps from the two choices.

Of course, looking at it in a vacuum having more AP uptime at 1.4 multiplier is a good thing. Logically, syncing PC with each AP would seem to be a good thing too. But those are feelings, not actual data. Everything I've seen, on here and in my own sims, is that as long as the fight duration doesn't cut out 1 use of AP when you un-glyph it (which would obviously making not glyping a bad choice, such as on Butcher) then glyphed vs unglyphed come out to be the same. There's no difference.

So - if there's no difference, except that fight length might screw you, then why would you ever not glyph? Obviously fight mechanics, such as needing to burn something quickly every 90 seconds, would change that, but we're not talking very specific fights that don't come up often, we're just talking about general good practices. If you glyph, you get maximum uptime. If you don't glyph, and the fight length is fine, then you get the same uptime. All you get by not glyphing is the chance that your uptime will be worse. You gain nothing, but risk doing worse. So why not glyph?

It's quite clear you didn't understand what I was saying. If you can link me your log where you see both unglyphed and glyphed the same I can see why they are similar because of how your fight length is set up. Also don't you see the irony in discrediting my points because I didn't link data with what I said but you have shown no logical proof that glyphing is always better?

[Wilderness]

Its been a couple weeks since I last ran those sims with my character glyphed and unglpyhed, but I'll do it again and post the results.

I'm also not discrediting anything - I'm saying that my opinion is based on the sims I ran of my toon of glyphed and unglpyhed for different fight lengths from 2 to 10 minutes. I understand why you'd want to see them, because I'm saying that's what the results were, and that's not proof of anything. What are you basing your opinion on?

[Komma]

Guys, take a step back instead of attacking each other. It's pretty clear that this debate is complicated enough with strong cases to be made for both sides. I don't think you can easily argue for one over the other when you look at the long list of factors:

Pro-glyph:
- Guaranteed equal or higher uptime
- Synergy with Bloodlust
- Better synergy with 2 min ICD/clickable trinkets
- Better synergy with potions

Anti-glyph:
- Synergy with even-numbered Prismatic Crystals
- Less complications with Evocation timing
- Shorter burns with higher mana levels, along with better AP coverage of burns

You two can go in circles all day with neither of you yielding, because all you're doing is listing supporting factors on your side. If you're going to post again, do so with evidence and numbers to explain why your factors matter more. I mean, why else do we have spreadsheets and simulations?

SimC sample profiles use the glyph because it produces higher DPS numbers on the 5 minute sample chart defaults, and the 7.5 minute user defaults. As others have mentioned, the difference is pretty small whenever the duration allows for equal uptime, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are exceptions with certain gear or fight settings.

In general, APL optimizations have always suggested that uptime is top priority. Number of usages of each ability/proc are often the top indicator of optimization quality, similar to how we count munched FoF/BF/AM/Pyros in WCL. There are a few notable exceptions such as saving FO for PC, but these exceptions require gigantic gains - FO basically does 100% extra DPS with PC. This kind of synergy strength is not the norm. For example, using AP with PC only adds 20% to the damage done on 12 seconds of PC, and the same can be said for syncing with Bloodlust. These synergies are usually tiny (Less than 0.5% of overall damage), and players place too much emphasis on them.

[Wilderness]

I apologize if my posts are coming off as attacking - that is not my intent.

[smartys]

The decision is dominated by fight mechanics:

Kargath: depends on kill time. Anything above 3min30s --> Use the glyph since your favor of the crowd will in most cases be higher later on so you want a longer AP uptime then ..
Butcher: 4 minute Fight --> use the glyph
Brackenspore: Since the Blue shrooms spawn around every 2 minutes I use unglyphed AP + 2 Min trinket on every blue shroom. I am not playing with PC on this fight so this might change.
Tectus: play fire
Twin Ogron: Use unglyphed since the first quake will else be during your burn phase and you ight have to move and possibly waste dmg
Koragh: Not really clear here since it depends on the tactic your raid is choosing.
Mar'gok: I use the glyph since AP gets ready during Intermission 1 and I want as much burst as i can get in this phase.

[Trustbucket]

I wasn't intending to start an argument over whether to drop the glyph or not, just trying to bring up a good reason to drop the glyph because the reason was overlooked. Using the glyph is more beneficial on short fight length ranges but the longer the fight unglyphing AP has given a good result, at least for me, as long as I don't lose AP uptime.

[Cycobi]

Call what I'm about to post ignorant or lacking maths (because tbf it does) or whatever you'd like; but honestly I think the glyph use should come down to personal preference in all cases.

I genuinely mean this. I play without the Glyph on Butcher M and I get decent results considering my gear, and I also have Rinoa who consistently uses the Glyph and has the same results. Whichever of us ends up on the top of the meters is more determined by crit RNG on AB/SN during burns and who gets better AM procs during conserves.

IMO (and I genuinely can't stress this enough), glyph usage is just a personal thing.