Evocation optimisation

[Valounette]

The public concensus is to Evocation at 50% mana. This may sim the highest in general but I feel important factors are being missed out.

If you look at the top gruul mythic logs right now, you'll see three different styles of using Evocation

1) Those who try to generally try to burn down to 40-50% mana, Evocate as usual. Max mana in 1-2 ticks depending on haste buffs/procs (timewarp/trinket)
2) Those who try to only ever need 1 tick of mana to reach full. You'll see they Evocate nearly always at 60-65%(timewarp; ~70%notimewarp) to achieve this
3) Those who try to maximise mana gain from two ticks of Evocation always - trying to munch as least mana as possible. This basically means Evocation@50%; however, they will go as low as ~30% when Hastetrinket+time warp is active, to reach full in 2 ticks; or ~40% when only a haste trinket is active. Else, 50% with no haste procs active

So. There seems to be a breaking in concensus here. I notice many top players decide to only Evocation at 60-70%. Others use the 50% rule.

Things to consider:

-If you always just stick to Evo only at 50% regardless of procs, you'll find that sometimes your first Evocation tick will take you to around ~83% mana. At least, in my gear, this is the case, when I have a haste trinket proc, but no time warp. When this happens, we still want to wait for the second tick, but we're still gaining much more mana than is required to reach full. i.e. we're munching mana, and it would have been more DPS to do an extra Arcane Blast and go to ~40% instead, thus making full use of two Evocate ticks

-1 tick vs 2 tick evocation is basically a question of whether 2(3?) more 4AC Arcane Blasts in a burn phase is more/less overall damage than not having to wait for an extra mana tick with Evocation

Question 1) Is 1-tick Evocation better or worse than 2 tick Evocation(evo@~50%)?

Things to keep in mind for this question: I'm not sure that the current sims of Evo@x% are accurate if they are using Evocate at a fixed percentage regardless of whether haste procs/buffs are active (specifically time warp); since a lot of mana would be wasted, whereas it wouldn't be outside of timewarp/trinkets.

If someone could make a priority system for Evocation in simulations, we would be able to answer this question. For example, it would be nice to compare:

1-tick-for-full/nearfull-mana sim:
Timewarp active - yes - Evocation at 60-65%
Timewarp active - no - Evocation at ~70-75%

2-tick-for-full-nearfull-mana sim:
Timewarp active - yes - Evocation at X(30-35%?)% (pretty sure this reaches full mana in 2 ticks with TW, depending on gear)
Timewarp active - no - Evocation at 50%

Summary: to properly model and test which mana % sims better, we need to account for haste buffs. Obviously trinkets play a massive role too, but the above example is just to not complicate things.

Question 2) (Regardless of 1 or 2 tick Evocation), how much DPS is gained(if any) from adapting Evocation % to account for haste buffs/procs to avoid mana munching/wasting/overcapping?

To reiterate what I mean by this - if you cast Evocation at a fixed % regardless of your haste, you're going to waste a lot of mana when haste buffs kick in. Personal example:

-No trinketproc/timewarp - Evocation at 50% mana for full in 2 ticks
-Timewarp - evocation at ~35% mana for full in 2 ticks
-Timewarp+trinket up - evocation at ~30%(?) for full in 2 ticks

What this means: If you have TW+haste trinket up and Evocate at 50%, you're effectively missing out on 2-3 4AC Arcane blasts, since a lot of mana is munched in the second Evocation tick. Would those extra 4AC AB's be more DPS?

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Note to people who might be scared that this is too complicated and don't think it's worth the effort: you literally only have to have a trinket weakaura if you have a Beastlord Darmac/Shards of nothing trinket, and from this can decide whether to burn an extra ~10% mana or not. That and, we always know that our first burn will end with Timewarp active, on fights where BL/TW is used on pull.

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Examples of logs to support this thread:

Mythic Gruul

#1 DPS log: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/G7 ... &spell=100" target="_blank
- Generally tries to burn to 50% mana. But notice that with time warp active, the first Evocation returns 56k mana in one tick, and then 26k mana from the second. Meaning, because of the extra haste from time warp, 30k mana (20%) was 'wasted' and he caps at 100% mana for a long time thereafter. Would he have gained more DPS by burning to 30% mana, to account for this mana gain? Hopefully this thread will tell us

Examples of 1-tick-evocation:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wn ... &source=25" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jx ... 0&source=4" target="_blank
-Burning extra during Timewarp to make not waste the extra mana gain from haste. Roughly ~60% mana with time warp, ~70% mana without. But is this better than standard ~50% evo and 2 ticks?

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Useful to know - in most logs:
- an Evocation tick with timewarp up is around 58k mana (37%)
- a normal evocation tick is around 38k mana (26%)

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IMPORTANT - any changes in using Evocattion would still assume you don't burn for too long and desync your evocation. Hence only burning extra if timings allow for it. For this reason, I believe simulations would require a maximum cut-off point of ~25-30(?)seconds after starting a burn phase, in which Evocation must be forced, if the desired mana isn't reached yet (in order to prevent desyncing of Evocation for the next burn). Currently we use a simple rule of no Arcane missiles below 70% mana unless 3 charges to shorten the burn, but I believe a timer is better.

Thoughts? Need someone who is better at simcraft to help x_x I only know the basics

[Chev]

This came from a thread that was doing the rounds a while ago (http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1146" target="_blank)



As you can see, there is not a lot of difference between different mana levels on when to Evo but there are a lot of factors involved when deciding to Evo but one thing you will notice is that point gets higher as you sim with different numbers of targets. Hence the post here (http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... 011#p12980" target="_blank)

[Valounette]

This came from a thread that was doing the rounds a while ago (http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1146" target="_blank)



As you can see, there is not a lot of difference between different mana levels on when to Evo but there are a lot of factors involved when deciding to Evo but one thing you will notice is that point gets higher as you sim with different numbers of targets. Hence the post here (http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... 011#p12980" target="_blank)

Um, I wrote in the OP I'm aware of those sims but not sure how accurate they are due to reasons of being unsure if they take into account timewarp/haste procs and Evocate accordingly to make use of mana gain. For example, do they take into account time warp buff and Evocate at a lower level to account for it to make full use of the mana?

I would imagine not... which would possibly lead to higher Evocation mana %'s to be undervalued

[Chev]

Sorry. I missed that. I can confirm they don't take into effect gaming different haste procs.

[Mevlin]

Another note to mention is that AB4 with 2pc and TW will give you cast times less than the GCD. If I do the 1 tick rule and evocate at 60% i usually have 15-20 seconds left on my TW. With 4 charges, 2pc, TW, and raid buff my AB4's cast time is exactly at 1 second (correct my math if it is invalid). So any haste in my gear (which I am stacking after mastery) is going to waste.

AB Math: 2.25 * 0.8 * 0.75 / (1 + 0.3 + 0.05) = 1
base * 4 charge * 2pc / (1 + TW + raid buff)

This is why I do 2 tick rule. But I am also very curious if anyone can sim this

[Mevlin]

And yes this usually desyncs my burn phases (since I burned for 40-45 seconds during TW). Solution is delaying your next burn by that same amount (10-15 seconds). In most fights in BRF, this usually isn't an issue.

[Killberry]

So any haste in my gear (which I am stacking after mastery) is going to waste.

Haste still increases our mana regeneration tho.

[Valounette]

So any haste in my gear (which I am stacking after mastery) is going to waste.

Haste still increases our mana regeneration tho.

Mana regen yes, but the GCD can't be less than 1 second, hence having a spell shorter than that offers no real DPS benefit. A very valid point.

[Killberry]

I know, but you can stay at 4 Arcane Charges longer, so I wouldn't say that it doesn't benefit our DPS.

[Dingtroller]

I have been tracking this thread for a while now hoping that we could draw a correlation between Evocation timing/ticks needed and haste effects.

Is there huge potential ( DPS wise) of researching this matter or should i just stop worrying about it and stick with the 50% - two ticks rule ?

[Valounette]

I have been tracking this thread for a while now hoping that we could draw a correlation between Evocation timing/ticks needed and haste effects.

Is there huge potential ( DPS wise) of researching this matter or should i just stop worrying about it and stick with the 50% - two ticks rule ?

It seems no one proficient in simcraft language feels like it :p

I would recommend going to 35% in Bloodlust though. You still get to 100% mana in two ticks, and you get a bunch of extra 4AC AB's. Just makes sense logically

[Pidigidy]

There are other artificial effects coming in on Gruul. If you are able to evocate before the first petrification goes of then you are delaying your evocation by less, which will mean it will synch up with your prismatic crystal better.

I know that from reading this thread I've been evocating if my mana is sub 70% and petrification is about to go off. It might be that if you are going to delay your evocation more than usual due to movement then it might be worth evocating early.

[BynoPyny]

If you evo just before the petrify on gruul you waste several seconds of precious 2set just standing around. I always same my evo just after the first petrify

[Valounette]

Still no answers for this thread :< I guess I'll have to look deeper into simcraft to find things out myself, but thought other more experienced users would be interested.

As for the topic: I got a pretty decent Gruul log today, rank 7, and it demonstrates taking advantage of timewarp/bloodlust for extra Arcane blasts: You can see the massive amount of mana regen on my first evocation after a big burn here:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Yy ... &spell=100" target="_blank

If I had enough time (meaning, not desyncing the next evocation), I could have burned even further (probably to 10% mana) and still got back to full in 2 ticks since I had a trinket proc up at the same time as timewarp when casting evocation. You can see this by the log - even when using my Evocation at around 25-30%, I got 75k mana in one tick, but the next gave 50k (meaning 25k mana which the haste trinket proc provided was munched)

Question still remains though, whether this is definitely worth it (i.e. provable with simulations) compared to ~50% evo; as well as whether 1 tick or 2 ticks is better when accounting for haste procs to not waste mana (whereas currently performed simulations ignore this factor). I'm still leaning towards maximum-burning with as many Ablast as possible, while still regening in 2 ticks, to be the better option

[adrift]

You can always delay your second crystal by 10-15 seconds provided you have a good idea of the fight time and won't be losing a potential useage. This would fix the de-sync issue and allow you to do an extended burn on the opener to make use of Time Warp on the evo.