Arcane Talent Comparisons, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinkets

[Frosted]

Below I've put together some basic information for people derived from SimC runs to help guide mages choices on how they want to play Arcane mage.

(I got annoyed having to find this stuff across multiple threads)

Table of Contents:
1)Single Target Talent Comparisons - HFC
2)Single Target Stat Weights - HFC
3a)Two Target Talent Comparisons - HFC
4a)Three Target Talent Comparisons - HFC
5)Arcane Racials
6)Trinket Comparsions
7)FAQ

Single Target

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Single Target Stat Weights

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Two target (stacked):

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Three target (stacked):

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Racials

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Trinkets

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Simple trinket output:

Frequently Asked Questions

Q1) How do the specs compare across item levels? Does Fire suddenly get good/bad? (OUTDATED)


Q2) What's with this Haste stacking nonsense?
A2) I've made two posts explaining this:

Part 1- http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... 260#p15110" target="_blank
Part 2 - http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... 320#p15251" target="_blank
tldr - pets OP.

Q3) Trinkets?
A3) Tome + Prophecy

Q4) Stat Priority?
A4) If no T18, go as normal(mastery)

If 2pc/4pc, go Haste 20% (1300rating) > Int > Haste > Mastery=Mult > Crit > Vers

haste to around 1300 with 2pc and no mythic darmacs, full haste after 4pc.

Q5) BiS list?
A5)

Code: Select all

head=demon_princes_ascendant_crown,id=124159,bonus_id=566 neck=choker_of_forbidden_indulgence,id=124391,bonus_id=566,enchant=gift_of_haste shoulders=mantle_of_the_arcanic_conclave,id=124177,bonus_id=566 back=cloak_of_hideous_unity,id=124138,bonus_id=566,enchant=gift_of_haste chest=robe_of_the_arcanic_conclave,id=124171,bonus_id=566 wrists=contemptuous_wristguards,id=124186,bonus_id=566 hands=gloves_of_the_arcanic_conclave,id=124154,bonus_id=566 waist=demonbuckle_sash_of_argus,id=124200,bonus_id=566 legs=pantaloons_of_the_arcanic_conclave,id=124165,bonus_id=566 feet=dessicated_soulrender_slippers,id=124150,bonus_id=566 finger1=loathful_encrusted_band,id=124192,bonus_id=566,enchant=gift_of_haste finger2=spellbound_runic_band_of_the_allseeing_eye,id=118306,enchant=gift_of_haste trinket1=tome_of_shifting_words,id=124516,bonus_id=566 trinket2=prophecy_of_fear,id=124230,bonus_id=566 main_hand=edict_of_argus,id=124382,bonus_id=566,enchant=mark_of_warsong

Q6) Major rotation changes from 6.1?
A6) Arcane Missile any time Mark of Doom procs on your target, and burn as deep as possible when you have AP up and the Tome trinket. Besides that, nothing else major has changed in your rotation/priority. Don't glyph AP when using Tome.

Q7) Do I AM during AP while in burn if I have the Tome trinket?
A7)
Running UM_ROP_PC with Tome, heroic ilvl profile. Haste optimized.



Not AMing during AP and while PC is up (except when you are 3xAM capped) is a gigantic DPS loss. Burn like normal when PC is up, regardless of trinket.



This is altering burn while PC is not up. So it's AMing like normal on PC, and then not AMing during burn if you have Tome+AP up. This IS is real DPS difference - I just had to run 100k iterations to get the error low enough to be sure. But honestly it's less than 100DPS, which is like...never going to be noticed.

But yes, technically not AMing during Burn off PC is a DPS gain when you're at this ilvl, running UM_ROP_PC, and using Tome.

Q8) Do I drop PC on pull with Prophecy of Fear?
A8) No, this is a large DPS loss. If running tome/prophecy and MoD procs, just follow normal spell priority until 4xAC. Then drop PC and weave AM on boss and AB on PC until MoD is expired.

Q9) PoF/PC/Tome??? How do I handle these things?
A9) Check the SimC Arcane APL thread for supporting evidence.http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... 921#p15820" target="_blank Read down from there.

[Unclechicken]

How recent are the spec comparison graphs of faq #1, and is it possible to extend them beyond ilvl 693? The current simcraft spec rankings seem to indicate fire being closer to arcane than you've shown.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html" target="_blank

[Frosted]

How recent are the spec comparison graphs of faq #1, and is it possible to extend them beyond ilvl 693? The current simcraft spec rankings seem to indicate fire being closer to arcane than you've shown.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html" target="_blank

The ones I had up were quite old. I just updated them a minute or so ago.

[Valounette]

Thanks for this.

This lets us make nice comparisons. Things like.. compared to Fire (PC+BW) it seems Arcane does 4k more dps to a priority target, but loses 17k dps overall, when hitting two targets. Useful knowledge for Iron maidens mythic.

[Frostfeierqt]

Has Haste really become that bad for single target (talents: SN, RoP, PC)? I thought the stat priority was Mastery > Haste > Crit = Multistrike > Vers.
According to your statistics it's now Mastery > Multistrike > Crit > Tempo > Vers. Was it allways like this or did it change because of some balancing changes?

Also the BiS-Trinkets changed. Simcraft's website is still showing that talisman and crucible are BiS. Since your statistics are showing that Crit is stronger than Haste it makes sense that repository is better even for arcane now.
I'm kinda confused, I guess I missed something important.

[Chev]

Other than lowering the GCD, haste will not have any effect on the talents you mentioned. Unlike NT which will get more damage in with more haste as there will be more ticks.

The stats given by trinkets are not what makes them BiS. It is how often they proc and how well that proc syncs with other abilities. On top of that, it also depends on your current stats. E.g. If you are already close to max haste, then a trinket with a haste proc wont do that much as you will get to a point where you can not cast spells any faster because the GCD is limiting the time between casts. Going back to the bonus from the procs, if a haste trinket procs twice as much as a crit trinket, then chances are the haste trinket will be better despite crit being the stronger stat. This is where running the sims helps to show the stronger trinkets as it is not always obvious as to which one will be better.

P.s. I have also cleaned up the posts that relating to my stuff up Apologies for editing your post.

[Frosted]

Updated everything for 6.2. Expanded the FAQ to handle any of the obvious questions people might have about gearing, trinkets, major changes to rotation, weights, etc.

[Lavok]

The stat priorities in Q4 put mastery up there after haste understandably, but the sim pics above have multi very high. How come?

[Frosted]

The stat priorities in Q4 put mastery up there after haste understandably, but the sim pics above have multi very high. How come?

Since the first sims that gave me the stat priority in the FAQ were run, the profile was improved (2 items swapped). The result was that MS is now slightly higher. But really, they are essentially identical. It should say mastery>=ms or ms>=mastery, they are very close. If the profile settles down (i.e. stops getting improved) I'll update to a final priority. Until then I'd just treat the two stats as nearly identical.

[Anarkz]

Hey, I was testing various things today in Shattrath on a Killable Target Dummy (Full raid buffs, 20 Million HP). I found that I was personally having best results using SN_RoP_PC and substituting the Tome trinket for the Insignia. I logged 1 try of this build and 1 try using Unstable Magic instead and replacing the Insignia with the Tome. Both attempts had similar RNG as far as I can tell. These recordings were obviously done with ~700ilvl gear.

SN_RoP_PC: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qc ... b/#fight=1" target="_blank
UM_RoP_PC: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qcaJLYxXVN3Gjkzb/" target="_blank

So I seemed to be getting better results with my Supernova build using the Insignia, despite what your simulations show. Is there something the simulations were doing that I was not? Something I was doing that the simulations were not? Does Archimonde trinket + Unstable Magic scale better with gear?

I'm not too savvy with Simcraft so I'm not entirely confident that I can play around/test things with it. I'm genuinely curious as to why everyone seems so adamant that the Tome+UM build is better than the Insignia+SN build, yet I'm having better results using the latter.

[fu11noob]

Your logs are private

[Anarkz]

Your logs are private

Woops. Fixed.

[Frosted]

Hey, I was testing various things today in Shattrath on a Killable Target Dummy (Full raid buffs, 20 Million HP). I found that I was personally having best results using SN_RoP_PC and substituting the Tome trinket for the Insignia. I logged 1 try of this build and 1 try using Unstable Magic instead and replacing the Insignia with the Tome. Both attempts had similar RNG as far as I can tell. These recordings were obviously done with ~700ilvl gear.

SN_RoP_PC: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qc ... b/#fight=1" target="_blank
UM_RoP_PC: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qcaJLYxXVN3Gjkzb/" target="_blank

So I seemed to be getting better results with my Supernova build using the Insignia, despite what your simulations show. Is there something the simulations were doing that I was not? Something I was doing that the simulations were not? Does Archimonde trinket + Unstable Magic scale better with gear?

I'm not too savvy with Simcraft so I'm not entirely confident that I can play around/test things with it. I'm genuinely curious as to why everyone seems so adamant that the Tome+UM build is better than the Insignia+SN build, yet I'm having better results using the latter.

This really isn't very useful. By the very nature of WoW, there is RNG impacting every pull we do. It's for this reason that we actually use SimC - so that we can do thousands of "pulls" and rule out the RNG effect of trinkets, AM procs, crit, MS, etc as being the determining factor between one spec being best or not, or one talent being better.

You only did one pull. If I look at even your basic breakdown, we see huge differences.

200k difference in AB damage between the two.
2million difference in AM damage done
200k from doom nova
150k from Arcane Barrage.
One of your pulls you have 50% more pet damage than the other.
One set had 2x more mastery procs
One set had sign of the dark star proc, the other didn't.
One pull had 8 ring procs, the other had 3.
You evocated 3 times on one, and 4 on the other.
You had 14 pet buffs (4pc) in one pull, 20 in another. Almost certainly aligned different (differing stacking amounts) and at different times (buffing different spells).

None of these are SN, or UM. And yet we see gigantic differences. Can you be confident, after one pull of each, that the damage difference you see is BECAUSE of SN vs UM and ONLY SN vs UM, or are you uncertain because of the RNG-impacted difference in damage I cited above?

For these reasons, I cannot say those logs tell us anything except that RNG is heavily impacting your DPS output - which I do not believe is a novel conclusion

The sim DPS output is an average. Meaning on average, UM will outperform SN. It doesn't mean UM will outperform SN on every pull. You could get bad RNG with UM, and it will swing below SN. But we don't tend to work with the extremes, and instead prefer to focus on average increase - as that is the most reliable measure of how different things compare and will perform across the many pulls we will make in game.

[Anarkz]

I didn't base my ideas on just those 2 pulls. I had made roughly 20 - 25 or so pulls with each of the two builds I was testing today (Unstable Magic with Tome vs Supernova with Insignia) and was consistently getting better results with SN+Insignia, admittedly 20-25 pulls is nothing compared to simcraft but I felt that it was accurate enough. At this point I was 4 hours in to my testing so I decided that I would simply log 1 pull of each (in terms of DPS, they were both very average pulls compared to what I was getting previously) and post them as an example of the DPS I was achieving and how I was playing (Was I personally doing something right/wrong in my play? etc). I probably should have explained that.

Besides all this, it seems that prior to my previous post I was actually getting very abnormal strings of good/bad rng. I didn't look too deep into buff/debuff uptimes on all of these individual pulls, I looked at the DPS numbers and presumed that the RNG of trinkets and such had averaged out overall - this created the illusion of SN+Insignia being consistently better for me. Since the previous post I made, my tests have been more consistent with the simcraft numbers - that being UM+Tome pulling ahead of SN+insignia. Sod's law I guess.

Also, besides the point but 'One set had sign of the dark star proc, the other didn't' - Sign of the Dark Star is the proc from the Insignia trinket which I was using with Supernova, and swapping with the Tome when I used UM, so it would be expected that it wouldn't proc when I'm not using the trinket, infact it even had lower uptime than it normally would have (it was at 24.6% uptime when, on average, it should be at 33.3%)

TL;DR I was getting consistent bad/good rng in my tests that led to the illusion of consistently getting better DPS with SN+Insignia over UM+Tome.

[Zyrachiel]

I've seen UM sim quite high, but doesn't it negatively impact our AM proc generation as opposed to SN/NT and so hurt our 2pc/4pc uptime?

[Frosted]

I've seen UM sim quite high, but doesn't it negatively impact our AM proc generation as opposed to SN/NT and so hurt our 2pc/4pc uptime?

You actually generate more missiles using UM than you do by using SN/NT. Shifting more of your spells to AB under AP + Archimonde trinket results in more AB casts that outweigh the amount of SN casts you gain by using SN. NT is just a bad single target talent to begin with, so it's not really an option.

AP not only makes AB faster but also lowers the GCD below what it could normally go below. SN can never be cast faster than the 1sGDC - AB under AP+Archi can.

[Bashlow]

Are the haste breakpoints 20% / 25-26% raidbuffed or is everything meant so be self buffed?

[Mortiferus]

Are the haste breakpoints 20% / 25-26% raidbuffed or is everything meant so be self buffed?

Raid buffed. If you look at the first Haste post that Frosted linked above, there is a chart showing you the rating needed to achieve the desired effect. That chart also shows that the percentage includes raid buffs.

Put another way: the ~1300 Haste rating you need only equates to ~15% Haste—you assume raid buffs to make up the difference (using the initial 20% breakpoint as an example).

[Lammer]

The 1300 haste figure without raid buffs seems to be easily reachible. Current 700ish gear, if re-enchaned from full mastery to full haste, gives 1297 haste for me. Taking into account, that even Heroic items are 10 ilvls higher than curren mythic, 1300 is an easy target

[Bashlow]

I understood these breakpoints only need to be reached until we have 4p. so nothing changes for our first raid tomorrow ?