Anyone else feel that UM PC is weaker ingame than in sims?

[Valounette]

Mod Edit: This thread is now a theorycraft thread, meant to analyse Unstable Magic in game versus simulations. Participants are required to either bring logs, simulation results, or analysis of either. Please see http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... =20#p15952" target="_blank for more details.

UM PC should start simming higher than SN PC when you've got 2set and started gearing haste a little.

I now have 4set, but the problem has started since having 2set. In both gear sets, simulations show that UM should be simming anywhere between 400-800 more DPS.

However, ingame in raids, on any pull I use UM, my dps is really, significantly lower. Even on long, extended, 6min+ pulls.

I tried to further test by hitting dummies for about 90 minutes, alternating between pulls of UM PC and SN PC, 7:30minute pulls. Every single parse, SN PC did significantly better.

Furthermore, I'm certain that I'm playing both 100% correct.

I don't know why or how the APL would overvalue Unstable magic... am I crazy? I saw another post saying they had the same problem.

Looking for people who find that their UM PC combo is fine and out performing SN PC in a real raid situation - so that I might have some faith that it's just super bad RNG and I might try it out again.. but for now, I'm sticking to Supernova

[Quetesh]

UM should be better with class trinket not with T18 - you are mixing it up a bit (Patchwerk fight realy doesn't represent most bosses so don't take simcraft too seriosly).

[adrift]

I have the same thing. For me (710 ilvl 4pc no class trinket) UM + PC sims higher for single target by ~600 DPS. Even on pure single target bosses I find SN/PC to be performing better consistently despite what my sim results say.

This also has me switching back to mastery gems/enchants after the 1300 breakpoint as my sims show basically mastery > haste with SN and haste > mastery with UM with the breakpoint reached.

[rupert]

I only have 2pc but I have the same feeling, simc tells me that I should go UM+PC haste but SN+PC gem/enchant mastery (already have 1400haste with gear) works better for me.

I think I'll try haste UM+PC once I have 4pc and archimonde's trinket.

[Killget]

AS Quetesh says, if you are looking at the Arcane talent Sims here:
http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1509" target="_blank,

These are done with BiS items i.e. 4 set and Mage trinket, the reason that UM beats out SN there is that using SN during AP will mean you are not utilising the trinkets effect so using UM will mean you can spam AB as much as you want during AP.

SN with 4 set, not mage trinket, UM with 2/4 set AND mage trinket,


Hope this helps

[Lavok]

SN with 4 set, not mage trinket, UM with 2/4 set AND mage trinket,
Hope this helps

It's not quite this simple, at least for me with 4set + PoF, no class trinket, UM+PC is the highest simming combo when going high haste (little under 2k) with +500dps or so over to SN+PC mastery enchanted/gemmed with ~1400 haste.

This being purely single target.

[Chuk]

Yeah i kinda feel the same as well. Even in fight like gorefiend that UM should like be good it just isn't. Someone should check the APL to see if there's something wrong.

Also, is the proc rate 15% for arcane and 20% for frost? Maybe Simcraft is messing up something about those proc rates?

[Komma]

Also, is the proc rate 15% for arcane and 20% for frost? Maybe Simcraft is messing up something about those proc rates?

The proc rate is fine. Using the sample stacked ranks from http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18H.html" target="_blank :

AB on pillow: 164.5 hits, 59.0 multistrikes
AB on PC: 48.2 hits or multistrikes
UM: 40.8 impacts

40.8 / (164.5 + 59.0 + 48.2) ~= 15.02%

As for why UM is valued so highly, I'm not sure.

[gameorg]

@Valounette: Is it just 2P which you are using, or are their any other factors, like PoF (prophecy of fear) trinket?

[Vynestra]

I have 2 set, and the mage trinket and switched to UM above 1300 haste and I seem to be out performing our other mage who has 2 set and no mage trinket. If I wanted to use SN instead of UM Id also have to switch back to micro crucible because it sims higher. But I seem to be doing really well from what I can tell. And our other Mage is using SN/mastery still since he doesn't have enough haste.

[Valounette]

UM should be better with class trinket not with T18 - you are mixing it up a bit (Patchwerk fight realy doesn't represent most bosses so don't take simcraft too seriosly).

No, I'm not mixing anything up. UM overtakes SN in simulations once getting 2set. Regardless of trinket.

[Valounette]

AS Quetesh says, if you are looking at the Arcane talent Sims here:
http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1509" target="_blank,

These are done with BiS items i.e. 4 set and Mage trinket, the reason that UM beats out SN there is that using SN during AP will mean you are not utilising the trinkets effect so using UM will mean you can spam AB as much as you want during AP.

SN with 4 set, not mage trinket, UM with 2/4 set AND mage trinket,


Hope this helps

We're talking about personal simulations without the trinket. Your post is irrelevant.

[Valounette]

@Valounette: Is it just 2P which you are using, or are their any other factors, like PoF (prophecy of fear) trinket?

I had the issue with 2set and no PoF. Now I have 4set and PoF and have the same issue.

[Rabona]

I'm in the same boat. I currently have 2pc/2pc, around 1300 haste and neither of the trinkets and simcraft put UM/PC a bit ahead of SN/PC for my char. Yet whenever I tried UM in HFC it just seemed signifikantly weaker.

I haven't really followed it up with a lot of testing, since SN/PC didn't sim far behind anyway and thus I thought I'd give it another shot when my gear would put SM further ahead, but my impression while playing UM was the same as OPs.

[Chuk]

We might want to consider the fact that we can use super nova while moving. This is actually really helpful when you drop your cristal in some situations.

I've tried simming UM vs SN on heavy movements, and even on this case, UMs sims ahead, when i think it shouldn't. There's something wrong with the way it sims, or some kind of bug in game.

[Valounette]

We might want to consider the fact that we can use super nova while moving. This is actually really helpful when you drop your cristal in some situations.

I've tried simming UM vs SN on heavy movements, and even on this case, UMs sims ahead, when i think it shouldn't. There's something wrong with the way it sims, or some kind of bug in game.

I don't think this is the issue at all, at least, in game.

The fights I have in mind are largely stand-and-nuke fights. And I'm very good with Ice floes and movement in general. Not having the two movement casts is trivial if you know the encounters and plan for movement. I've never felt this was the issue at all. I'm certain I'm playing it correct/optimally.

[Darthy]

Just because you look at the damage at the end of the fight and SN is ahead of UM doesnt mean its better, UM takes no global to cast so obviously you'll get more damage out of other spells which again further decreases the % of UM.

[Lavok]

Just because you look at the damage at the end of the fight and SN is ahead of UM doesnt mean its better, UM takes no global to cast so obviously you'll get more damage out of other spells which again further decreases the % of UM.

I think we are talking total dps output here if I'm not totally mistaken.

[Valounette]

Just because you look at the damage at the end of the fight and SN is ahead of UM doesnt mean its better, UM takes no global to cast so obviously you'll get more damage out of other spells which again further decreases the % of UM.

I think we are talking total dps output here it I'm not totally mistaken.

Correct

[isa]

A couple of things to consider that gives SN an advantage over UM on actual boss fights.

1. On actual fights you actually end up interrupting quite a lot of spell casts, either by (accidental) movement or because you realize it was the wrong choice to cast AB or one of the many other reasons you could think off. The total UM damage you can do is limited by the amount of AB casts you can get off in a fight (which is reduced by interrupts) and your total SN damage is mostly limited by it's cooldown. Especially since it has 2 charges you're almost always gonna get the maximum amount of damage out of your SN.

2. SN is instant cast and can be used while moving.

3. (speculation) in real life situations it's quite likely that you delay your SN's for longer then robomage would because your play probably isn't as optimized. Hanging on to some charges of SN gives you the ability to use them to fish for more missiles procs when you get PoF procs. I've been using my SN's for this purpose quite a lot and I strongly believe it's a big DPS increase. (to bank 1 charge in order to fish more AM during PoF) maybe someone smarter then me could sim this?