[7.2] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Guides and discussions of all things specific to the Mana Adepts of Azeroth.
Graytree
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Graytree Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:29 am

Guys can someone redirect me to a thread I have apparently missed or simply tell me for which trinkets should I go for Arcane - I have read quite a few different opinions on that which are good and which are bad and would love to get like a some kind of "tierlist" I should aim for from NH. Would it be stat sticks, int. proc trinkets, secondary proc... I would appreciate a lot any kind of info on that matter.

I am currently with 875 Urn, 855 Spiked Tongue and 860 socketed Aran's ruby.
The OP of this thread should have an updated trinket sim list.

To answer your question about your current trinkets, you should use Urn definitely as Intellect trinkets are quite strong right now. Your other trinkets are both poor, but I would use spiked tongue considering ruby just got a big nerf to its proc rate and seems crappy in general now.
Curamas
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Curamas Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:31 am

After Whispers in the dark(Gul'dan trinket) is still B.I.S for single target and AOE?
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Saffina
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Saffina Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:52 am

Does anybpdy happen to know or have the new BiS Arcane legendary sim?

I'm just wondering if the Wrists are still the best after the 18% nerf
So far, top tier raiders been rolling with kilt and shard/kj burning.

Edit: sims at front page.
is this just they dont have the wrists? id just like to know which of the 2 legendaries i should upgrade first
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loonatiq
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby loonatiq Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:17 am

I'd say kilt is your basic mana legendary and currently 1 for mana management is enough cause of higher priority on AM and bigger reduction during AP. Also with 2 set piece bonus which many of people(me2) already have, AM proc is really high for AB - for me its 51% so mana is not an issue.

Second legendary should be dps one and both KJ and shard give you huge spike in dps so prolly these are the reasons. 2 mana legendaries is overkill imo.
terathim
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby terathim Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:49 pm

I've been having some problems estimating which of my trinkets to use since the release of 7.1.5. I have a 865 Archanocrystal and a 875 statstick with haste I've been running for raids and using my 860 Aran's Relaxing Ruby (with chest) only on heavy AoE bosses.

Yesterday I received a 880 Star gate with a socket and I'm curious if it's any good? From running dungeons it seems decent for cleave situations (but still worse than ruby I think). So I'm guessing it's still worse than my previous statstick for single target, but it still has a socket so I guess it should be a decent upgrade for cleave bosses? Since NH hasn't been out that long it seems hard to find any consistent data to trinket simulations. So if anyone would help with some input on this it would be greatly appreciated.
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loonatiq
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby loonatiq Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:58 pm

I've been having some problems estimating which of my trinkets to use since the release of 7.1.5. I have a 865 Archanocrystal and a 875 statstick with haste I've been running for raids and using my 860 Aran's Relaxing Ruby (with chest) only on heavy AoE bosses.

Yesterday I received a 880 Star gate with a socket and I'm curious if it's any good? From running dungeons it seems decent for cleave situations (but still worse than ruby I think). So I'm guessing it's still worse than my previous statstick for single target, but it still has a socket so I guess it should be a decent upgrade for cleave bosses? Since NH hasn't been out that long it seems hard to find any consistent data to trinket simulations. So if anyone would help with some input on this it would be greatly appreciated.
Yes, still need to sim all trinkets after the nerfs but you can think of some combos checking what top players are currently using. Here is the list:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane" target="_blank

Copy the name and track them on armory.
carrybag
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby carrybag Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:38 pm

Reminder that you need to rerun the arcane legendary aoe sims with talents
TER
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby TER Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:54 pm

Guys. Can you explain me. Why "versatility" so desired?
for each mastery point we have ~+0.5% DMG per arcane charge (with 4 arcane charge whe have +2% DMG);
for each versatility point(475! equal ~1.42 mastery point) we have only +1% dmg;

What am I missing?
Ellwy
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Ellwy Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:09 pm

dmg of AB at 4 AC stacks is like this:
BaseDmg * (1 + (0.60 + masterybonus)*4) * (1+versatilitybonus)
If you do the math you can see versatility contributes more than mastery, but in short versatility multiplies that
2.4 (4*0.6 = base bonus dmg per AC charge) which mastery does not affect.
jimmyo
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby jimmyo Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:51 pm

Guys. Can you explain me. Why "versatility" so desired?
for each mastery point we have ~+0.5% DMG per arcane charge (with 4 arcane charge whe have +2% DMG);
for each versatility point(475! equal ~1.42 mastery point) we have only +1% dmg;

What am I missing?
The amount of mastery it requires to gain 1% damage is higher than the amount of versatility it requires.

4-charge AB with 30% mastery is 192%*(1+.75*4) = 768%
4-charge AB with 31% mastery is 192%*(1+.755*4)=771.84%
4-charge AB with 32% mastery is 192%*(1+.76*4) = 775.68%

However:

4-charge AB with 30% mastery, 1% vers is 192%(1+.75*4)*1.01=775.68%

2% mastery = 666 mastery
1% vers = 475 versatility.

Additionally, versatility affects all damage, mastery only affects charge-based damage. This includes MoA dot damage (which is more than 50% of MoA's value), 0-charge AB/AE, Arcane Orb, hidden satyr, and deadly grace.

________________________________________________________

While on this topic, let's discuss crit vs. vers.

25% crit is an expected 25% increase in damage, since each crit is double damage.

4-charge AB with 30% mastery, 25% crit is 768%*1.25 = 960% expected damage.
4-charge AB with 30%mastery, 26% crit is 768%*1.26 = 967.68% expected damage
4-charge AB with 30% mastery, 25% crit, 1% vers is 768*1.25*1.01=969.6% expected damage

1% vers is actually stronger than 1% crit. However, vers requires 475 points to get 1%, crit requires only 400. So 1% crit actually should be compared to .842% vers, not 1% vers.

4-charge AB with 30%mastery, 25% crit, .842% vers is 768*1.25*1.00842=968.01% expected damage.

Let's do this at higher values of vers to check diminishing returns:

4-charge AB with 30% mastery, 25% crit, 5% vers = 768*1.25*1.05 = 1008% expected damage.
4-charge AB with 30% mastery, 25% crit, 5.842% vers = 768*1.25*1.05842=1016.08% expected damage.
4-charge AB with 30% mastery, 26% crit, 5% vers = 768*1.26*1.05 = 1016.064% expected damage.

The gap between crit and vers diminishes as vers increases. The two work in a see-saw. If one is really high and the other really low, the low one will be more valuable. The raw damage output at similar raw points is virtually equivalent. Crit has the bonus of a higher ceiling. If you get a nice crit string during AP + RoP, that's really good. If you get no crits there, that's bad. Vers is RNG-neutral, which protects its low-end damage, but its high-end damage is much lower. Thus, there is a personal question you have to ask about what you want: top-end damage range or better low-end damage range and a touch of survivability.
Xind
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Xind Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:15 am

Where is the Infernal Alchemist Stone at Item Level 885 in the Single Target charts coming from? I've seen this on the other spec Top Trinket lists as well, yet the AoE one shows 865. Is this a program error and the 885 means 865 and the ranking reflects that, or is it projecting a future Item Level for Single Target and its currently unobtainable?
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Causese
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Causese Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:29 pm

obelisk of the void seems to be really good but it's very unlikely to get it from weekly chest :cry:
(if paired with ap)
Dikembe
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Dikembe Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:22 pm

What I've got after latest hotfixes:

Legendaries

1 target
Image

4 targets
Image

Relics

1 target
Image
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

../profiles/Tier19M_NH/Mage_Arcane_T19M_NH.simc name="No Trait" artifact_override=Aegwynns_Fury:3 artifact_override=Ethereal_Sensitivity:3 copy="Arcane Missiles damage","No Trait" artifact_override=Aegwynns_Fury:4 copy="Arcane Power duration","No Trait" artifact_override=Aegwynns_Imperative:4 copy="Critical strike chance","No Trait" artifact_override=Aegwynns_Wrath:4 copy="Arcane Explosion damage","No Trait" artifact_override=Arcane_Purification:4 copy="Arcane Blast damage","No Trait" artifact_override=Blasting_Rod:4 copy="Arcane Missiles proc chance","No Trait" artifact_override=Ethereal_Sensitivity:4 copy="Arcane Barrage damage","No Trait" artifact_override=Torrential_Barrage:4 copy=Artifact+1,"No Trait" main_hand=,id=127857,ilevel=928 copy=Artifact+2,"No Trait" main_hand=,id=127857,ilevel=929 copy=Artifact+3,"No Trait" main_hand=,id=127857,ilevel=930 copy=Artifact+4,"No Trait" main_hand=,id=127857,ilevel=931 copy=Artifact+5,"No Trait" main_hand=,id=127857,ilevel=932 copy=Artifact+6,"No Trait" main_hand=,id=127857,ilevel=933 copy=Artifact+7,"No Trait" main_hand=,id=127857,ilevel=934 copy=Artifact+8,"No Trait" main_hand=,id=127857,ilevel=935 copy=Artifact+9,"No Trait" main_hand=,id=127857,ilevel=936 copy=Artifact+10,"No Trait" main_hand=,id=127857,ilevel=937
Stats

1 target
Without Mystic Kilt
Image

With Mystic Kilt (940)
Image
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

../profiles/Tier19M_NH/Mage_Arcane_T19M_NH.simc calculate_scale_factors=1 copy="Mystic Kilt (940)",Mage_Arcane_T19M_NH legs=,id=132451,ilevel=940 copy="Mystic Kilt (910)",Mage_Arcane_T19M_NH legs=,id=132451,ilevel=910
4 targets
Without Mystic Kilt
Image

With Mystic Kilt (940)
Image
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

../profiles/Tier19M_NH/Mage_Arcane_T19M_NH.simc calculate_scale_factors=1 copy="Mystic Kilt (940)",Mage_Arcane_T19M_NH legs=,id=132451,ilevel=940 enemy=E1 enemy=E2 enemy=E3 enemy=E4
Q. How long should I delay my burn to use Mark of Aluneth?
A. About 20 seconds.

Image
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

../profiles/Tier19M_NH/Mage_Arcane_T19M_NH.simc default_actions=0 name=20s actions.precombat+=/variable,op=set,name=max_burn_delay,value=20 actions=counterspell,if=target.debuff.casting.react actions+=/time_warp,if=(buff.bloodlust.down)&((time=0)|(equipped.132410&buff.arcane_power.up&prev_off_gcd.arcane_power)|(target.time_to_die<40)) actions+=/mirror_image,if=buff.arcane_power.down actions+=/stop_burn_phase,if=prev_gcd.1.evocation&burn_phase_duration>gcd.max actions+=/mark_of_aluneth,if=cooldown.arcane_power.remains>20 actions+=/call_action_list,name=build,if=buff.arcane_charge.stack<4 actions+=/call_action_list,name=init_burn,if=buff.arcane_power.down&buff.arcane_charge.stack=4&(cooldown.mark_of_aluneth.remains=0|cooldown.mark_of_aluneth.remains>variable.max_burn_delay)&(!talent.rune_of_power.enabled|(cooldown.arcane_power.remains<=action.rune_of_power.cast_time|action.rune_of_power.recharge_time<cooldown.arcane_power.remains))|target.time_to_die<45 actions+=/call_action_list,name=burn,if=burn_phase actions+=/call_action_list,name=rop_phase,if=buff.rune_of_power.up&!burn_phase actions+=/call_action_list,name=conserve copy=0s,20s actions.precombat+=/variable,op=set,name=max_burn_delay,value=0 copy=10s,20s actions.precombat+=/variable,op=set,name=max_burn_delay,value=10 copy=30s,20s actions.precombat+=/variable,op=set,name=max_burn_delay,value=30 copy=40s,20s actions.precombat+=/variable,op=set,name=max_burn_delay,value=40 copy=50s,20s actions.precombat+=/variable,op=set,name=max_burn_delay,value=50
Last edited by Dikembe on Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eshelon
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Eshelon Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:41 pm

obelisk of the void seems to be really good but it's very unlikely to get it from weekly chest :cry:
(if paired with ap)
I got an Obelisk at 885 from my chest two weeks ago. When I simmed it I did not get better results versus my 895 Brinewater Slime stat stick. It's a little clunky on the rotation as well so I opted out for now.
Ddmagebags
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Ddmagebags Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:40 am

Wow...Guess i'll have to take a look at my stats when I get home....I like the fact that Mastery is king..
Mage
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Mage Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:41 am

Interesting sims, however, for me (940 kilt+940 shard) haste sims second worst to mastery.
jimmyo
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby jimmyo Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:27 am

Interesting sims, however, for me (940 kilt+940 shard) haste sims second worst to mastery.
And this is why the correct answer is always "sim it yourself."

The Simcraft T19M profile uses both Metronome and Whispers, so the haste procs are contributing not only to the devaluation of haste, but also to the overvaluation of Mastery (going OOM faster).

My only two legendaries are Prydaz and Belo'vir. I have 25% crit, 4.5% vers, 31.5% mastery (less than the simcraft profile), 18% haste (which seems to be a break point for RoP builds), 2 piece bonus (can drop Belo'Vir for 4p), Whispers and Infernal Writ. My weights are:

Intel: 12.59
Vers: 11.16
Crit: 10.59
Mastery: 10.4
Haste: 9.45

Stat weights are personal and gear dependant. Posting generic ones is a fool's errand.
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DocileCraig
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby DocileCraig Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:00 am

im getting simmilar with no lead in mastery at all - I'm wondering if this might change once I get set bonuses going on. I feel like I'd have to learn about simcraft to know how it scales stat values to understand a little better how and why it comes up with the numbers it does.
jimmyo
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby jimmyo Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:14 am

im getting simmilar with no lead in mastery at all - I'm wondering if this might change once I get set bonuses going on. I feel like I'd have to learn about simcraft to know how it scales stat values to understand a little better how and why it comes up with the numbers it does.

Stat weights are determined by Simcraft iterating the simulation with +X (I believe it's 200, but may be 1000) of a stat. It then finds the increase in dps from the original profile to the "upgraded" profile and divides the difference by X to find the slope. It is attempting to find the derivative of the stat scaling.

However, there are two common issues that arise from this method of calculating stat weights.

1) Stat weights do not work negatively because they are calculated only using additives. This causes discrepancies for people who rely on pawn for all their gearing choices. Pawn uses the stat weights in both addition and subtraction. This leads to things that Pawn suggests as an upgrade actually leading to reduced DPS when the simulation is run.

2) Certain breakpoints can artificially inflate/deflate a stat weight. For example, Earthquake from Elemental Shaman gets an extra tick every 16.667% haste (used to be 10%). So if a shaman is sitting at 33.2% haste, their haste stat weight will be insanely high, but if they are sitting at 33.5% haste, it will be incredibly low. The simulation wants the shaman to get to the breakpoint, but it doesn't do a good job expressing it.

3) Because simcraft calculates these weights by adding stats to your current profile, stat weights are highly personal and constantly fluctuating. While there may be a general consensus that, for example, Crit = Vers > Mastery > Haste, some people may need far more Mastery than the norm or far less Crit than the norm.

4) This method of finding the derivative by using basic slope formula from algebra (DPS2 - DPS1)/(Stat2 - Stat1) assumes that stats scale linearly. The program doesn't do a limit analysis on the information to try and restrict the difference between Stat 2 and Stat 1 to a bare minimum.
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Causese
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Re: [7.1.5] Arcane Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legend

Unread postby Causese Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:17 pm

obelisk of the void seems to be really good but it's very unlikely to get it from weekly chest :cry:
(if paired with ap)
I got an Obelisk at 885 from my chest two weeks ago. When I simmed it I did not get better results versus my 895 Brinewater Slime stat stick. It's a little clunky on the rotation as well so I opted out for now.
did you just sim it or also change apl so that simcraft pairs it with arcane power? cause otherwise simcraft will use it on cooldown (695 brinewater might still be better though)

not pairing it with arcane power is a 14k~ dps loss for me

885 obelisk sims 10k higher for me than 865 darkmoon hellfire and 3,4k~ less than 895 whispers of the dark

it probably gets even better with 2x arcane power duration traits to match it with obelisk's 15s uptime

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