[TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

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Komma
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[TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Komma Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:25 am

The common quoted advice to "should you use Mage Armor or Frost Armor" for heroic raiders is usually "Mage Armor for everything that isn't pure single target". This is often quoted as truth in bnet forums across US/EU, MMO-C forums, IV, and pretty much everywhere else that I've been able to check.

Until recently, anyway. While everything I could find in English says "MA > FA most of the time", the Chinese-speaking NGA forums seem to say "FA > MA all the time", and even go as far as to talk about 14242 haste caps like Frost spec. Arcane Mages on top Asian WoL parses seem to be using Frost Armor as well. This directly contradicts the Western mage community. What gives?

The SimC sample profile has been using Frost Armor, mostly because it's pure single target. The margin is about 1% (~5K DPS). I decided to mess around for a bit, switching between Frost Armor and Mage Armor, varying between 1 to 3 targets. To my surprise, Frost Armor seems to beat out Mage Armor in every situation, and the gap grew on multiple targets. I didn't go further and try 4+ targets, because I don't think the AOE APL has been optimized well for those situations.

It seemed like a good opportunity to look a little further and see what Frost Armor and Mage Armor does for us, so let's do some simplified analysis. Frost Armor gives 7% spell haste. This is multiplicative, similar to the raid wide spell haste buff, and not in the form of 7% rating (ie. 2975 rating). To convert the value of FA into haste rating, we need to take into account the current haste rating of the mage:

Code: Select all

( ( 1 + 7% frost armor ) * ( 1 + gear haste % ) - (1 + gear haste % ) ) * 42500 rating per 100 percent haste = 2975 + ( 7% + gear haste rating )
Mage armor gives 3000 mastery rating, which is affected by PBoI Amplification:

Code: Select all

( 3000 mastery from AM * (1 + PBoI amp %) )
For simplicity's sake, let's consider BiS scenarios. 588 PBoI gives 9.7% amplification, so MA gives (3000 * 1.097) = 3291 mastery. BiS 588/589 arcane has 2 common options: ~12.4K haste for 2T16H(+3HWF) and ~14K haste for 4T16H. This gives 3843 haste for 2T16H, and 3955 haste for the 4T16H setup. Doing these conversions gives us some basics to compare with:

1. 3843 / 3291 ~= 1.168. 2T16H setups should use MA over FA only if mastery is at least 16.8% stronger than haste.
2. 3955 / 3291 ~= 1.214. 4T16H setups should use MA over FA only if mastery is at least 21.4% stronger than haste.


How big is this gap between mastery and haste? AMR can provide some context. AMR default weights for my arcane mage assigns 3.7 to haste. If MA were to be worth it, mastery would need to have a weight above 4.32 for 2T16H, and above 4.49 for 4T16H. That's much higher than the default 3.9. SimC give similar results - mastery is stronger than haste, but not quite 20% stronger:
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That's a 5.92% margin - not enough for MA to be stronger. This gap also increases if you have higher amounts of haste on your gear due to unlucky drops.

But how about multitarget? The common belief seems to be that "Mastery scales Mage Bomb damage, Haste without meeting breakpoints does not". However, there are two problems with this logic:
1. Between breakpoints, bomb duration is shortened, which means you can apply it more often and get more overall ticks in a fight. Time spent casting high damage Mage Bombs is better than time spent casting filler ABs. The Increased number of bomb casts also means increased AM procs.
2. For NT, haste scales powerfully because you need 14242 haste to reach the 1s GCD. FA also guarantees a few extra ticks of NT because of the frequency of BPs.
3. AE and ABar gain a lot of DPET from getting closer to 1s GCD.
Just looking at the above, I don't feel like there's a very convincing case for why Mage Armor should be stronger than Frost Armor when more targets are added.

But what about the opener during Bloodlust? As you might expect, SimC says that the opener burst is a tiny bit weaker (~1%) with Frost Armor. The GCD capping during Bloodlust and Meta Gem stack durations hurts a tiny bit, but evens out over the duration when you're not GCD capped. And similar to the results from the Frost GCD analysis (http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=291" target="_blank), you won't GCD cap on AB/AM with only Bloodlust or Meta Gem, unless you're above 15697 haste - a haste cap you're unlikely to hit unless you're using Kafa Beans.

Should we consider using Glyph of Armors and in-combat armor swapping? I did some hacking around on SimC to make this work, since the Glyph isn't implemented properly. I didn't do extensive testing, but it looks like the answer is "probably not". The damage gained from a mage armor opener seemed to break even at best with the GCD wasted on swapping.

Another way to consider this is through some napkin math: At our current raid buffed ~110% mastery levels, another 11% added by Mage Armor gives us a ( (1 + 110% + 11%) / (1 + 110%) - 1 ) = 5.23% damage increase overall, attenuated by our ability to stay near 100% mana. When you compare this to the 7% multiplicative haste with minor losses to GCD capping, it does makes sense that Frost Armor could come out ahead.

How does it work in actual raids? I ran SoO the last 2 weeks with Frost Armor, and it seemed to work pretty well. The faster pace does make the rotation and mana levels a little harder to manage, but the increased mobility is nice. With only 2 weeks of attempts and all the RNG, it's hard to tell if it gave me any actual DPS increase, though. I'd like to invite fellow Arcane Mages to try it out - running all 14/14H with Frost Armor instead of Mage Armor.

With all the math done, it doesn't look too good for Mage Armor. It also only gets worse with more haste from gear. The conclusion seems to be that Frost Armor is always better, because of the multiplicative effect.

Were we wrong in saying MA > FA except on pure single target, or are we missing something?

EDIT July 11th: Apparently I linked SimC scaling charts from when Frost Armor was already used.
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Vatti
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Vatti Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:01 pm

Interesting insight. I'll give it a go next reset and post my logs here.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby voltaa Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:34 pm

Interesting insight. I'll give it a go next reset and post my logs here.
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KCN ... amage-done" target="_blank

I tried it out last week after Komma originally brought the idea up and the result I came to was...inconclusive. Some fights I crushed my old ranks (Norushen and Thok) and others I was pretty garbo on (Sha and Protectors) but all in all I feel like it didn't actually matter what I use, when I play well I rank, when I don't I don't. The armor is the fine tuning that makes or breaks that last 5k dps, solid play, kill time, trinkets etc are what make the 100k differences.

Now I'm not saying I don't think this is valuable to know since you want to be optimized for that perfect pull, but this isn't going to break people into those top 10 parses.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Komma Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:02 pm

The armor is the fine tuning that makes or breaks that last 5k dps, solid play, kill time, trinkets etc are what make the 100k differences.
Quoted for agreement and emphasis.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Vatti Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:50 am

The armor is the fine tuning that makes or breaks that last 5k dps, solid play, kill time, trinkets etc are what make the 100k differences.
Exactly what I'm looking for. At least it's something to test whilst the tier is old.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Chaotic Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:57 am

What would be extremely interesting to finally find out is if as arcane, how much damage could be done while using frost armor and the 54.20 haste breakpoint for NT, especially multi target.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Wilderness Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:43 pm

Has anyone else given this a try? I'm planning on switching to Arcane this week and wasn't sure if I should just go FA for all fights or just for pure single-target.

I definitely get what Voltaa is saying about the armor I pick isn't going make a 100k difference and I'm certain to not play as well as I should given my lack of familiarity with the nuances of Arcane. But I'd rather have the best set-up so that my suboptimal play is the limiting factor, not what I selected pre-fight.
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voltaa
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby voltaa Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:09 pm

Has anyone else given this a try? I'm planning on switching to Arcane this week and wasn't sure if I should just go FA for all fights or just for pure single-target.

I definitely get what Voltaa is saying about the armor I pick isn't going make a 100k difference and I'm certain to not play as well as I should given my lack of familiarity with the nuances of Arcane. But I'd rather have the best set-up so that my suboptimal play is the limiting factor, not what I selected pre-fight.
It's likely that we won't be able to get an answer to this as the top ranks are mostly by players who are using MA, and this creates the perpetual cycle of "top players are using MA, MA must be better, MA is better, use it to get top ranks"
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Wilderness Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:05 am

But I want an answer that tells me everything I need to do! haha fair enough, I'll probably just roll with FA anyway because then I can blame you all when I suck (actually I just always tend to like higher haste no matter what spec I play, so this gives me an excuse).

I've been lurking here since near the start, though I never had a reason to post. Even though I don't have the interest in or capability to TC, I do like to absorb all things mage so that wouldn't be complete without keeping tabs here :)
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Komma Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:13 am

I wanted to add that while top ranks from NA and EU are using Mage Armor, Asian mages appear to be using Frost Armor a lot more often. It is likely that some of the top WoL Arcane parses are using Frost Armor.

In fact, I just spent a few minutes digging and found one. This is the rank #5 Arcane TFP parse on WoL (Cause I can't read Korean from #1-3):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/vvv0 ... 990&e=1261" target="_blank
Mouse over the first buff cast. It's Frost Armor.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Chev Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:24 am

This is very anecdotal, but I ran Frost Armor for all last night and I felt like I performed better (Bosses 1 – 8). It could be that the guild as a whole performed better as we only had one wipe where we normally have 6+ while people get used to transitioning from 10 – 25 man (or normal to HC in some cases) and as a result kill times were shorter and there were less headless chickens running about.

I’m going to be looking at my logs today but I can say I definitely prefer the faster play as I have always felt Arcane was slow after playing Frost for 95% of normal progression.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Vatti Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:03 pm

VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/vattitv/b/548429007" target="_blank (no timestamps but guage it based on the length. We wiped a lot around Malk/Spoils)
Logs: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/97vpKM14xZhyQfdr" target="_blank
Gear: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/R ... i/advanced" target="_blank (4 set w/ frost armor obviously)

Verdict: Very impressed with results. Will give it a go with 2 set next week. Improved a few of my ranks including my terrible protectors rank but that's mainly due to the bomb snapshot WA and my opening.

Have fun looking through the logs. I have no idea what to look for I just play things ><
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Hyber Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:15 am

I've had this internal debate with myself for several months now.
Personally , I've found that FA does yield higher, except for a few pure aoe fights - galakras/spoils. And even on galakras I swap to FA IF there's enough downtime between adds and the actual drake/boss to rebuild mana.

All in all, what's it's also concluded is not only is it due to the percentage of stats increase but haste and mastery are really closer in value than we realize. I'm not even sure if I should go for BPs anymore or just maintain the 3.9/3.7 weights..to the sky. Gotta tell ya, I reach a lot of haste atm and am not sure where I should truly stop to go into mastery.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Komma Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:41 am

VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/vattitv/b/548429007" target="_blank (no timestamps but guage it based on the length. We wiped a lot around Malk/Spoils)
Logs: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/97vpKM14xZhyQfdr" target="_blank
Gear: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/R ... i/advanced" target="_blank (4 set w/ frost armor obviously)

Verdict: Very impressed with results. Will give it a go with 2 set next week. Improved a few of my ranks including my terrible protectors rank but that's mainly due to the bomb snapshot WA and my opening.

Have fun looking through the logs. I have no idea what to look for I just play things ><
I don't feel like we have sufficiently sophisticated tools to analyse a haste difference in logs, haha. Someone would have to make a complex cast time parser for us to see things like that. I have to say some of those ranks are pretty impressive, though.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Shangalar Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:31 am

Would using Frost Armor potentially change the BiS list and/or make us prefer using the 4-set bonus, further changing the final log results and dps?
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Soggs Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:51 am

Would using Frost Armor potentially change the BiS list and/or make us prefer using the 4-set bonus, further changing the final log results and dps?
http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=341" target="_blank look there, that should answer a lot of questions in that regard.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Mop Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:40 pm

Is it possible that FA is giving them better output because they are 6/6 for upgrades ? Just throwing it out there, could be 100% wrong.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Wilderness Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:56 pm

Is it possible that FA is giving them better output because they are 6/6 for upgrades ? Just throwing it out there, could be 100% wrong.
From what I've seen, I'm pretty sure that they were rolling with FA prior to the upgrade change, when they were 4/4.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Cycobi Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:20 am

http://www.twitch.tv/cycobi/c/4729910

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Rg4nGZYBCwJP2yQz

My Parses done w/ 14,242 Haste breakpoint + Frost Armour.

Generally saw increases in overall DPS when I didn't die, whether that's totally down to the reforging/regemming or down to better RNG I'm not sure, /shrug it performs well though.
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Re: [TC] Mage Armor vs Frost Armor

Unread postby Chaotic Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:05 am

So I have been running with FA since i switched over to arcane. Currently sitting at 48% Haste with 90% Mastery with FA. Im hoping tmw that i get HWF avools, that would bring me to 50% haste 14242 haste and about 91% mastery. I do like the play of higher haste with Arcane, though im now wondering since everyone else has had an opportunity to test it how they are liking it now too. If i drop FA again for MA i go to about 38% haste and 101% mastery, though i could possibly gain a bit more haste by not putting some reforging into mastery. Opinions?

Edit: i am not sure if i fully understand. 48% or 50% haste sounds high for arcane. Is that what ya'll are running with now?

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