Nighthold tier 4-set

[Revash]

Hello fellow arcane mages. I seem to have been lucky(or not) to get my 4 set bonus and I am kinda curious.
Since its simply reduces by 2 sec your evo costs with every AM proc which in turn is RNG based.

So the question is. What would be the most optimal way to work it in the standard rotation? Simply carry on and if you get nice AM procs then start doing a mini burn phase with 30 sec left or so (regardless if AP is ready or not) or is there another complex more DPS way?

Or is the 4-set bonus not really worth the hassle to work with and don't bother with it?^^^

P.S legendary wise: I have the tw ring and the trinket so (except the ring) they don't affect the rotation much(like kilt would)

[colbalt]

Hey also got the 4set late last night and had a play. It does seem to interfere with the timings quite alot I.e evocation seems to be ready to go at just the wrong time. I either have arcane power up and evocation is very close to being up so you face the dilemma for delaying arcane power to post evocation or delaying evocation which defeats the bonus set. Then the next burn conserve phase sets itself up nicely but the third then repeats the firsts issue. I'm tempted to try the talent that increases the area and missile proc chance even further to see if it can help sync the two more. Any other I put would be appreciated here also

[Revash]

Yes. I can see your point Cobalt. With the 4-set bonus. Having extra AM procs can be both a blessing and a curse.

[magerlol]

I don't have the 4 set bonus quite yet, but I think there will be a few ways this will be useful. I think rotation will still be AP, burn to 0 mana, evo, then conserve. If your evocate cd is less than your AP cd, burn again, evo, then AP and conserve till next evo is close to cd, then burn into evo. Its going to be require some effort to learn your when to use evocate properly but this 4 set seems to be quite powerful.

[yarafx1]

I only have three pieces atm but I frequently dsync my AP and Evo and think this will help level out the gaps between the two.

[magerlol]

Agreed... on a stand still ST fight, its easy to not desync, but in most fights you tend to keep mana longer which causes that desync. Its one of those 4 set bonsus that mathmatically seems shitty, but practically will give you a nice dps boost as you can burn more. Or incase of a mistake allow you to resync your evo/ap.

[AetherBlaze]

I think 4-set has more synergy with temporal flux than overpowered. You can more easily burn mana, so evocation spends less time off cd. The shorter casts of arcane blast generate missile procs, so the cd of evocation is reduced faster.

In a few tests on the target dummy with the 4-set/bracers/kilt, temporal flux beat overpowered by ~2-3%. In some tests before I got 4-set, overpowered beat temporal flux by ~1%.

[Nazgool]

iv just been doing testing on the dummies w/ different openers and talent combos since the last time i checked the apl in simcraft is fubar. i still have no clue about anything tbh number fluctuate so much w/ arcane its infuriating. tempted to just say fuck it and finish off frost to 54 atleast there is something stable there.

or u know i can be useful and just be a DH

[Naaldira]

Hey also got the 4set late last night and had a play. It does seem to interfere with the timings quite alot I.e evocation seems to be ready to go at just the wrong time. I either have arcane power up and evocation is very close to being up so you face the dilemma for delaying arcane power to post evocation or delaying evocation which defeats the bonus set. Then the next burn conserve phase sets itself up nicely but the third then repeats the firsts issue. I'm tempted to try the talent that increases the area and missile proc chance even further to see if it can help sync the two more. Any other I put would be appreciated here also

Why do you feel the need to tie AP/Evo together anymore? You lose essentially no mana during burn with AP now with OP.

Outside of actually during AP you can just burn some mana during RoP's whenever, conserve whenever, and you dont need to do long burn phases, theres no point. You don't need to be high mana to conserve, because you don't need to be high mana to burn.

[Ronark]

I find around 25% mana is enough for an AP Burn, give or take mastery- I have around 5.4k (27%), but I also have Kilt. I now burn to sub 15% mana then Barr, which is more than enough to conserve with Kilt and stay low enough for when Evo comes off CD.


Side thought: The 4pc is also great for moments of extreme haste- Like the trash leading up to Spellblade or on GME.

[colbalt]

Hey also got the 4set late last night and had a play. It does seem to interfere with the timings quite alot I.e evocation seems to be ready to go at just the wrong time. I either have arcane power up and evocation is very close to being up so you face the dilemma for delaying arcane power to post evocation or delaying evocation which defeats the bonus set. Then the next burn conserve phase sets itself up nicely but the third then repeats the firsts issue. I'm tempted to try the talent that increases the area and missile proc chance even further to see if it can help sync the two more. Any other I put would be appreciated here also

Why do you feel the need to tie AP/Evo together anymore? You lose essentially no mana during burn with AP now with OP.

Outside of actually during AP you can just burn some mana during RoP's whenever, conserve whenever, and you dont need to do long burn phases, theres no point. You don't need to be high mana to conserve, because you don't need to be high mana to burn.

i think your missing my point here. its nto about tieing evocation to arcane power.

its about having enough mana to use arcane power with out delaying evocation

[Effia]

Honestly my advice as Arcane is just take the 2 set and then forget the 4 set. Unless you're running a temporal flux build which I don't even know if that's better than Overpowered even if you had massive mastery, then the 4 set just throws everything out of whack. Even if I did use the 4 set I don't think it would even change my rotation or make me use an Evocation early, since currently with the Kilt I go:

Burn > Evo > Burn to oom then regenerate using Kilt until I have 40-50% mana at which point my AP is back up with between 20-30 seconds left on Evo which is fine considering I have a huge chance to proc AM, rarely do I run out of mana before Evocation is up.

The only time I can see 4 set being very good is if you are running Temporal Flux and have Gravity Spiral, but that's just a theory, I've no evidence.

[Roval]

The 4 set has been giving me at least one extra evocation per fight.

Those of you who claim it to screw up the cooldown rotation don't seem to realize you can do a full AP burn ~20% mana. My stats at the moment are 25% crit, 20% haste, 25% mastery, 16% versatility, so it's not like I'm regening a ton through mastery.

The more evos you get, the more damage you are capable of doing. Mana = damage.

Do not be afraid to pop evo on CD, monitor your timers and do small burns to make it worth full amounts of mana. With the 4 pc, it requires more thought into when you can actually burn or not, but if you do it correctly it will net you more mana for damage.

[Effia]

Those of you who claim it to screw up the cooldown rotation don't seem to realize you can do a full AP burn ~20% mana.

Speaking for myself I am perfectly cognizant of Overpowered and the implications it has. Nevertheless, my style of play is structured around having Evocation ready very shortly after my Arcane Power and I never delay Arcane Power apart from when there is a particular burn coming up, of which there have been none so far in my Mythic NH experience. I also have Kilt which alleviates many of the problems and functions in a similar way to the 4 set. As such, I've prioritised other higher quality items in place of the set gear and have kept the two set only.

If that works for you then you should obviously continue to do it but I find the 2 set perfectly sufficient and have the logs to support my claims.

[colbalt]

i figured out last night a similar thing, while i have the 4 set equipped and it does provide some benefit but i just carry on like normal and use evocation when i need the only real difference is that it is ready earlier.

my main ponder is on whether to arcane power directly on pull or to just blitz the intial mana quickly and then evo> AP. with charge up and going full hamm i can get under half mana and 3 charges of arcane missiles in less then 15 seconds and able to use arcane power at about 20 seconds into the fight.

currently i have only done this on fights where i can see a benefit to the dps in delaying the arcane power for either multiple adds or avoiding certain mechanics.
here is a link to some of my logs to show how i am performing

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/c ... 348/latest" target="_blank

i certainly dont think having the 4 set is a hindrance at all and wouldn't bench it over having slightly higher ilvl gear in place of it. but i don't think rushing to get it is overly beneficial.

i plan to test trying to reduce my mastery down to the bare bones most likely 20% and be able to bliz mana quickly with stronger out put during a burn and then enter a true conserve phase at around 70% mana ready to rinse and repeat. im sure with practise the timings of when to start burning will get easier.

my biggest bug bear with arcane power on pull is that by the time you have done your first evocation and started working through the second mana pool is the evocation literally comes of cd when arcane power does. im hoping with much less mastery i can speed up the initial burn enough that i can pop evocation before the second arcane power is ready and smooth out the rotation more.

[TinaMcNasty]

Got 4p last night. I sim 3k less with 4p equipped than I do without. Does the sim not know how to use it properly? If so, the sim and I would have that in common.

[a0kalittlema0n]

It does not really make use of it no. If you dropped ilvl to get 4 set it'll sim lower.

I usually try to hold my AP on the 2nd or 3rd use to use Evo before it. It's how I use it atm.

[sharifoe]

I'm new to arcane mage, so not a pro or anywhere near. Just recently got the 4-piece NH set and trying to decide what to do with it. It lowers sims by about 1.5%~ DPS because I'm lowering my ILVL from 892 to 889; however, I think the 1.5%~ loss shouldn't be noticeable.

My stats are 30% Crit / 19% Haste / 32% Mastery / 3% Versatility.

I'm looking at the 4-piece in two-ways:

1) Several of the fights in NH have a bit of movement, which often desync's my AP / Evo. This leads me to sometimes awkward moments where after I'm done with my AP burst there's about 15 seconds left on Evo's CD where then I'm resulted into doing ABlast x2 > Dump AM > ABarrage until Evo is up. With the 4-piece NH my AP / Evo are almost never desync'd and as the Evo plays catch-up if I needed to do some movement. This is the easiest use I see out of the 4-piece set. It's hard to quantify it, but I feel always having Evo up outweighs my 1.5%~ DPS loss per sims. Also, the set pairs well with Time Warp ring because the ring burns my mana like crazy sometimes leaving me in awkward situations.

2) Creating a new rotation, new stat distribution, and using Temporal Flux. With this I think you need to have a ton of mastery or one of the Head/Wrist legendary. I don't have any of these legendaries and can up my mastery to 36%, which was still falling short for my expected rotation. I was opening up with the typical opener and then using Evo. I'd bank x2 AM while burning ABlast to Evo asap. Doing this allowed me to have the 2nd Evo pop-up slightly before the next AP was ready. Then I popped the 2nd Evo, and did the AP opener again. However, after the burn phase was over I was in an awkward spot where there'd still be about 40 seconds left on the 3rd Evo, so once I got to 20%~ mana, I'd do a mini-conserve phase with ABlast x2 > Dump AM > ABarrage until Evo is up. My DPS was about 5% lower on average. So basically, I was doing a Opener Burn Phase > Mini-Burn Phase (without AP) to 2nd Evo > Burn Phase > Mini-Conserve Phase to 3rd Evo, etc. With the Head/Wrist or perhaps with over 40% mastery, I think I'd be able to do a Burn Phase > Mini-Burn Phase > Burn Phase > Mini-Burn Phase, etc. And there'd never be a Mini-Conserve Phase.

Overall, I think the 4-piece NH is a lot better than people think. It sucks on Patchwerk/Target Dummy, but is good in raids. Almost every encounter in NH has movement. It's just difficult to quantify the actual DPS gain because it's more there to alleviate mechanics by re-syncing your AP and Evo, which in turn provides a DPS gain. Would be interesting as someone mentioned above if a player has the Head/Wrist could provide insight as I feel Temporal Flux would then outperform Overpowered.

[Tipsey]

I think you are putting too much stock into having AP and Evo Synced. Or perhaps I have become too reliant on my kilt. If you are using overpowered you can definitely get a full AP burn with around 30% mana. Arcane is all about mana management, and sure having evo up after a full AP burn is a nice quality of life thing, if you manage your mana properly it really shouldn't matter though.

[sharifoe]

I think you are putting too much stock into having AP and Evo Synced. Or perhaps I have become too reliant on my kilt. If you are using overpowered you can definitely get a full AP burn with around 30% mana. Arcane is all about mana management, and sure having evo up after a full AP burn is a nice quality of life thing, if you manage your mana properly it really shouldn't matter though.

True, you don't need to sync AP and Evo, but I feel it's really straining if you don't. With Kilt that's a different world. As an arcane mage without Kilt if you get greedy and do an extra 2-3 ABlast's at 4 charges you're going to be starving for mana and will find yourself repeating ABlast x2 > Dump AM > ABarrage until Evo is up. If I play perfectly, I can squeeze in an extra Evo with the 4 set and not have it sync with AP, but again if I do an extra 2-3 ABlasts I'm oom. The hard part is figuring out how much ABlasts is overboard before it's too late. With Kilt you can go off and be like, " Whoops I went overboard let me regen 12% of my mana real quick."