[BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for Battle for Azeroth (8.0)

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Dutchmagoz
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[BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for Battle for Azeroth (8.0)

Unread postby Dutchmagoz Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:27 pm

Arcane Mage in Battle for Azeroth (8.0)
Up-to-date as of September 18th.

Content
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Ataraxey Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:19 am

Great write up on the new Arcane changes - I have a few clarification questions on the rotation based on the above:
- with 4 pc T21 do you cast 4 arcane blasts on the opener before you barrage -> charged up -> AP and begin burn? For each additional AP, should you get to 4 stacks, barrage and then start burn?

- Do you only cast AM when clearcasting procs in burn and conserve?

- is it correct that during conserve you still cast arcane blast at 4 stacks until 50% mana? And then barrage at 4 stacks to get mana from kilt, back down to 50%, barrage, etc?

- Since kilt gives you 12% mana back per 4 charges cleared, and if the above is true, is it better when you hit 50% during conserve to barrage -> get 4 stacks -> barrage until back up to some % of mana? Or just barrage at 50% -> get 4 stacks -> cast till 50% again -> barrage, etc
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Magai Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:06 pm

- with 4 pc T21 do you cast 4 arcane blasts on the opener before you barrage -> charged up -> AP and begin burn? For each additional AP, should you get to 4 stacks, barrage and then start burn?
On pull, you'll probably want to instantly charged up into arcane power and burn, on other burns you'll probably want to dump 4 charges into a barrage, then begin the cycle (if it lines up?, if you wind up delaying a full arcane power at some point due to waiting it might not be worth it, I'm not sure)
- Do you only cast AM when clearcasting procs in burn and conserve?
More than likely yes, as clearcasting also reduces the channel time to finish missiles, whereas the charges reduce the cast time of arcane blast, which would likely be better dps
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Dutchmagoz
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Dutchmagoz Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:48 pm

Great write up on the new Arcane changes - I have a few clarification questions on the rotation based on the above:
- with 4 pc T21 do you cast 4 arcane blasts on the opener before you barrage -> charged up -> AP and begin burn? For each additional AP, should you get to 4 stacks, barrage and then start burn?
No, you precast Arcane Blast -> Cast Charged Up -> Arcane Power -> Start Arcane Blasting
- Do you only cast AM when clearcasting procs in burn and conserve?
Yes, only with clearcasting, and only when below 95%. Both during burn and conserve, even during AP, you cast missiles with clearcasting.
- is it correct that during conserve you still cast arcane blast at 4 stacks until 50% mana? And then barrage at 4 stacks to get mana from kilt, back down to 50%, barrage, etc?
Yes, exactly. Just if you got overpowered, you actually go down to 30%. You can even drop a bit lower if it's needed.
- Since kilt gives you 12% mana back per 4 charges cleared, and if the above is true, is it better when you hit 50% during conserve to barrage -> get 4 stacks -> barrage until back up to some % of mana? Or just barrage at 50% -> get 4 stacks -> cast till 50% again -> barrage, etc
You keep casting blast until 30% after using Barrage.
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Ataraxey Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:58 pm

Thanks for the clarification Dutch, appreciate it!

Also, it sounds like the 4PC T21 isnt really used for opener then?
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Dutchmagoz Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:10 pm

Thanks for the clarification Dutch, appreciate it!

Also, it sounds like the 4PC T21 isnt really used for opener then?
Correct!
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Donnicton Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:42 pm

Soul of the Archmage just got stealth nerfed, it now only grants Amplification.
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby gurudox Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:49 am

Honestly Overpowered + Time Anomaly was too strong, but I'm not sure why they were concerned since the content is irrelevant. The replacement is kind of a joke, though.
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Ataraxey Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:17 am

My personal sims are showing Shard of the Exodar is the best replacement for Archmage after the stealth nerf today.

I'm also showing Arcane Familar as the best T1 talent, and OP pulls ahead of TA by 20 dps. I imagine double lust makes OP a bit better, unless TA doesn't properly sim or reflect it's real benefits because of its RNG nature?

My talent sims w/ exodar + kilt: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ ... jFUbCjut1B
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Sosaria Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:17 am

Dang, I really liked TA and Overpowered... I found that when I get the lucky evocation proc from TA it feels like I'm in burn phase all the time.

Will see whether Arcane is going to be my main in BFA after the legendaries drop off...
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Dutchmagoz Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:06 am

I have updated for the latest hotfixes.
My personal sims are showing Shard of the Exodar is the best replacement for Archmage after the stealth nerf today.

I'm also showing Arcane Familar as the best T1 talent, and OP pulls ahead of TA by 20 dps. I imagine double lust makes OP a bit better, unless TA doesn't properly sim or reflect it's real benefits because of its RNG nature?

My talent sims w/ exodar + kilt: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ ... jFUbCjut1B
I got the same findings, except Mantle is good for single-target as well.

I am a bit sad they nerfed Archmage. I understand why, it made it so we are basically permanent burn phase, due to OP+TA, but it was fun for a little while.
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby timmywitt Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:50 pm

I've got a question about Rule of Threes.

It seems like it may be better to use the proc to cast Arcane Missiles when you hit exactly three charges (such as from hardcasting Arcane Blasts, or Arcane Orb only generating three charges) since the free Arcane Blast won't be fully powered up by charges, and won't cost as much if done for free either. Since Missiles isn't affected by charges, it's fully powered all the time.

If you get the proc from casting Charged Up, or get 4 charges from Time Anomaly, or Orb hits enough targets to go straight to 4 charges, then it seems like it would be best used on whichever spell is the best damage per unit time between a 4-Charged Arcane Blast or Arcane Missiles.

Maybe?
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Dutchmagoz Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:30 pm

I've got a question about Rule of Threes.

It seems like it may be better to use the proc to cast Arcane Missiles when you hit exactly three charges (such as from hardcasting Arcane Blasts, or Arcane Orb only generating three charges) since the free Arcane Blast won't be fully powered up by charges, and won't cost as much if done for free either. Since Missiles isn't affected by charges, it's fully powered all the time.

If you get the proc from casting Charged Up, or get 4 charges from Time Anomaly, or Orb hits enough targets to go straight to 4 charges, then it seems like it would be best used on whichever spell is the best damage per unit time between a 4-Charged Arcane Blast or Arcane Missiles.

Maybe?
This is an interesting idea, and one I had to double check because I wasn't sure why I didn't write that as the rotation before. I just resimmed it to make sure I remembered correctly, and it is still a DPS gain to use AB over AM on ro3:


Image

Why exactly? I'm not sure. I imagine it is because it reduces the amount of 4 Arcane Charges Arcane Blasts that we end up doing, since yes, AM does do slightly more damage and costs more mana than a 3 arcane charge AB, it does not generate arcane charges, whereas AB does, and arcane charges can basically be seen as damage.
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Voltairus Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:46 am

I know that everyone's sims aren't going to be the same obviously, but the wording in this guide and people's comments on Discord would suggest that either combination ( kilt+mantle or kilt+shard ) should be clear winners of kilt+soul of the archmage.

But in my sims it showing that kilt+shard is best for me at 4710 dps. Followed by kilt+soul at 4615 dps and coming up last is kilt+mantle at 4585. Not a massive difference between the three combinations but I am curious why the Soul of the Archmage is considered so dog shit when it's my best combination?

Am I missing something extra to this equation or is it just that it's not as bad as people make it sound?
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Dutchmagoz Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:43 am

I know that everyone's sims aren't going to be the same obviously, but the wording in this guide and people's comments on Discord would suggest that either combination ( kilt+mantle or kilt+shard ) should be clear winners of kilt+soul of the archmage.

But in my sims it showing that kilt+shard is best for me at 4710 dps. Followed by kilt+soul at 4615 dps and coming up last is kilt+mantle at 4585. Not a massive difference between the three combinations but I am curious why the Soul of the Archmage is considered so dog shit when it's my best combination?

Am I missing something extra to this equation or is it just that it's not as bad as people make it sound?
Soul is definitely not "dogshit" if someone said that. I just haven't seen many gear sets where it is top 3, bug it's definitely possible it's good in certain gear/talent combinations.
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby voltaa Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:01 am

I know that everyone's sims aren't going to be the same obviously, but the wording in this guide and people's comments on Discord would suggest that either combination ( kilt+mantle or kilt+shard ) should be clear winners of kilt+soul of the archmage.

But in my sims it showing that kilt+shard is best for me at 4710 dps. Followed by kilt+soul at 4615 dps and coming up last is kilt+mantle at 4585. Not a massive difference between the three combinations but I am curious why the Soul of the Archmage is considered so dog shit when it's my best combination?

Am I missing something extra to this equation or is it just that it's not as bad as people make it sound?
I have had very similar results to yours and what I am seeing it come down to is what you are wearing, and what you are giving up. These sims are done in a vacuum of BiS gear, and I nkow for myself when I go for "optimal" legendaries I end up with a lower over all dps due to dropping an offpiece chest for a tier piece that is much lower ilvl. The "Best Legendary" isn't a hard and fast rule unless you have all of the BiS option pieces to choose from for each combo and it really comes down to simming yourself and using your head. Also as far as soul goes, gaining a talent in any damage tier (non mobility) will always be a good legendary, even if it isn't as broken as the ridiculous shit it was.
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Vorrum Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:59 pm

I'm taking issue when reading about incanters flow over rune of power. I don't believe it is truly better than rune of power considering most of arcanes damage will come during arcane power and fitting as much damage into that window is how is been done for a long time with the most success. I just wanted to ask for some clarifications:

Did you run sims on the comparison of these two abilities?
Do you have a bias towards incanters?
Now that the stats are different does that change the priority on these two?
Does taking time anomanly have an effect on choosing incanters over rune of power?

For M+ I can understand the need for mobility but thats about the only time I'd take incanters, its always been less damage.
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby voltaa Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:56 pm

I'm taking issue when reading about incanters flow over rune of power. I don't believe it is truly better than rune of power considering most of arcanes damage will come during arcane power and fitting as much damage into that window is how is been done for a long time with the most success.
With the change to artifact weapons AP's duration is down quite a bit, which has a big effect on our burn and how to handle it. Being able to fit 2 RoP's into 1 AP during lust was huge for our choice to take it as we could double dip for a long duration.
Did you run sims on the comparison of these two abilities?
He and many others have run MANY sims of the abilities, and if you look around the site you will see that the sims of others back up the results for the most part. There are situations that you would want to take RoP over IF. If you sim yourself in your available legendaries and find that Shard/Kilt is your strongest combo, you'll likely also find that RoP coupled with OP pulls out as a front runner for talents.
Does taking time anomanly have an effect on choosing incanters over rune of power?
Yes (edit: but possibly no), every change you make to talents and gear, legendaries, 4 set, 2 set, what gems you use etc, will have an effect on the talents that pull ahead. What people seem to be missing here is that:

1. These sims are done in BiS gear with BiS legendaries

2. Even though one or the other is "best" the results of these are all very close at the moment, and i mean very close

3. You have to sim yourself in your gear with your legendaries comparing the multiple talents to see what's best for you. There is so much variance in gear and such variety now that hard and fast rules of the 2-3 pieces per slot that we used to choose from don't hold up anymore.

Just as an example here is a sim of my mage where RoP is actually better for me, based on my legendaries, also note that the DPS difference is so negligible that if I wanted to use any of these 4 combos, RNG would have more of a factor on the DPS than the actual talents I choose.

Image

Go nuts, sim yourself and play how you want, this is one of the few times where you can viably pretty much play with almost any talent combo that you want to.
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Dutchmagoz Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:59 pm

Did you run sims on the comparison of these two abilities?
I have ran sims on every single possible legendary and talent combinations (it's thousands, and takes hours to run) so yes. IF and RoP are very close in DPS, basically equal. But the odds of losing DPS while using RoP due to suboptimal usage is much higher than it is with IF, which is why it is suggested.
Do you have a bias towards incanters?
Nah, if anything I like RoP more because it promotes proper planning and rewards good play / punishes mistakes.
Now that the stats are different does that change the priority on these two?
Your own stats may change the balance of them. I ran the sims with a pretty standard set of gear for a mythic raider in Antorus.
Does taking time anomanly have an effect on choosing incanters over rune of power?
Yes, Time Anomaly promotes Incanter's Flow over Rune of Power, because your burn phase becomes weaker without Overpowered, and your conserve stronger with TA due to random AP procs giving your more DPS at times where you would not be able to line it up with RoP, but the damage bonus from IF is always there.

Aside from that, I strongly agree with what Voltaa is saying: Every character is different, and with how close IF and RoP are, either can be stronger for your own set of gear and legendaries. So your best bet is to sim your own character, and keep in mind what mechanics a fight has, and pick IF vs RoP depending on that. This actually goes for a bunch of talents for Arcane. A lot of them are quite close and you can pick a multitide of them and be viable.
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Re: [BfA] Arcane Mage Guide for 8.0 (BfA pre-patch) - TLDR version

Unread postby Poly Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:01 am

Has anyone tried using the Iskar / Mannoroth trinkets? I have a feeling that they could be pretty overpowered but i don't own them, so i can't really try it out myself.

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