Fire & Prismatic crystal

[Valounette]

Is it better to get Heating up+Pyroblast, then cancel a Fireball and place Prismatic crystal? Or simply get a Pyroblast, cast Fireball, place Prismatic crystal and hope the fireball critted?

Additional question: If Combustion/crystal is ready and your 4set procs from using IB to upgrade to a Pyroblast, is it best to just plant the crystal(wasting 1GCD of 4set buff), and throw the remaining 2 Pyroblasts at the crystal? Note that a second charge of Inferno Blast would be no where near ready if we do this so a double spread wouldn't be possible. Maybe use the 2 pyroblasts, double blast wave for time, then double spread?

Lastly, how should Blast wave be used with crystal? With so much emphasis on double spreading, it sometimes feels hard to even have space to fit in Blast waves, if unlucky on crits.

[Komma]

I actually wonder a bit about this, because the current theories in terms of how to play PC-Fire all discuss the ideal situation on what to do (PC -> Build ignite -> double IB), but not a lot of discussion on what "Plan B" is when it fails, ie. PC -> Fireball+Pyro both don't crit, IB still not yet recovered.

The current sim requires either Pyro+HU, or Pyro+fireball in flight, before PC is dropped. This most often leads to the following combo:
HU -> Fireball + IB -> PC -> Fireball + Pyro, at least 1 crit -> Fireball (once or twice) -> Pyro until out -> IBx2 -> Swap, Combustion -> IB spread Combust if multitarget -> Swap back to PC -> Blastwave x2 -> Dump last Pyro on PC

Is this ideal? Hard to say, really. But what happens if Fireball + Pyro both don't crit after summoning PC? What's the plan B? Current sim does a mix of failsafes and unpredictable behavior, so there isn't really an answer. Whenever 2xIB is available though, it does a mix of weird things:
PC -> Fireball + Pyro (double non-crit) -> IBx2 -> swap to boss -> Pyro if ignite is low -> Combust -> Blast Wave x2 on PC
or
PC -> Fireball + Pyro (double non-crit) -> IBx2 -> Pyro if ignite is low -> Combust PC -> IB spread to boss -> Blast Wave x2 on PC

More research is needed before we actually have some sort of consistent contingency plan for when things don't work.

[Valounette]

I see you favour the Pyro+Fireball in air-> Prismatic crystal in order to not waste a GCD/cancel a cast.

Out of curiosity, has the other method been simmed? For example: Making sure robomage has both heating up and Pyroblast, and then stopcasting a subsequent Fireball cast for Prismatic crystal?

Indeed it sucks to break the always-be-casting rule and nearly waste an entire GCD by cancelling a Fireball.. but it seems we only have time to cast at max 2 Fireballs in order to fit everything into the crystal. And the chances of 2 Fireballs not critting either? Actually feels like that happens incredibly frequently for me, even in 695ilvl gear

Last comment:

''PC -> Fireball + Pyro (double non-crit) -> IBx2 -> Pyro if ignite is low -> Combust PC -> IB spread to boss -> Blast Wave x2 on PC ''

does indeed look weird. When and why would the sim choose Pyro+combust the crystal instead of switching to pyro+combust? Surely this produces a lower Ignite given the two previous inferno blasts would have dramatically reduced active ignite on the crystal D:

[Komma]

does indeed look weird. When and why would the sim choose Pyro+combust the crystal instead of switching to pyro+combust? Surely this produces a lower Ignite given the two previous inferno blasts would have dramatically reduced active ignite on the crystal D:

See, that's the problem. Inferno Blast doesn't actually reduce active ignite on the crystal, because ignite is so low! Keep in mind that IB is an instant spell with no travel time, which allows for less ticks than Fireball which also has travel time, now hits for a decent amount (101.8% sp vs 134.8% sp), and always crits.

The behavior of the sim is straight forward - double IB, look for highest ignite target, fire the pyro generated from double IB if it thinks it can still grow the ignite, and then Combustion. Afterwards, it will spread the Combustion if necessary. I was planning to write a deconstruction of the APL's extremely convoluted logic in terms of how it pulls this off, but it takes quite a bit of time and the APL is being updated too frequently for that.

[Azo]

Additional question: If Combustion/crystal is ready and your 4set procs from using IB to upgrade to a Pyroblast, is it best to just plant the crystal(wasting 1GCD of 4set buff), and throw the remaining 2 Pyroblasts at the crystal?

I'm practicing PC usage on dummies and this situation I find very awkward.

[TLTeo]

When and why would the sim choose Pyro+combust the crystal instead of switching to pyro+combust? Surely this produces a lower Ignite given the two previous inferno blasts would have dramatically reduced active ignite on the crystal D:

Combustion on the crystal also causes the PC to detonate and do damage, doesn't it? In that scenario, when you have mediocre ignites on both PC and the boss despite the IB spread trick, the damage you gain from having combustion up on two targets briefly while also nuking the crystal for its entire duration might be higher overall, compared to having to waste a gcd on a pyro on the boss, rather than crystal, and still having a low/mediocre ignite anyway.

[Valounette]

So... did anyone sim if canceling Fireball with Pyro+HU then dropping crystal is higher or lower DPS than the current version which just casts a fireball with pyroblast and hope it was a crit?

[Valounette]

So... did anyone sim if canceling Fireball with Pyro+HU then dropping crystal is higher or lower DPS than the current version which just casts a fireball with pyroblast and hope it was a crit?

Still no insight on this?

I really think it's worth breaking the Always-be-casting rule in order to ensure heating up and pyroblast procs are up when going into crystal. Since we really only have room for 1, sometimes 2 Fireballs during PC, of which there is a decent chance those won't crit either. And if we do have to do 2 fireballs fishing for the proc, and get a decent pyro chain after that, we can't fit in both blast waves (sometimes neither). Having to do 3 fireballs on the crystal is pretty much game over (and yes it can happen... it's not rare at all for me to get 4-5 stacks of enhanced pyrotechnics)

I feel it's a worthwhile tradeoff to lose a Fireball GCD in exchange for a guarenteed time period allowing double Blast wave, and a greater chance of a pyro chain. Another point to take into account would be less time spent Fireballing the crystal itself, so better GCD's can be used on the crystal

But again, sims>feels

[Dutchmagoz]

I didn't sim it, but I did do a lot of practicing on both raid bosss and dummies.

I always do get pyro with IB -> fireball -> place pc -> fireball (until HU, which if the initial fireball pre-PC crit is already up) -> fireball -> pyroblast spam. I have NEVER had the issue of not having double IB available like this. Why? Because:

Let's assume a gcd of 1.00 and a fireball of 1.50 (50% haste)
- IB is cast at 0.00 (generating pyroblast) (8 second CD)
- cast fireball, finishes at 1.50 (6.5 second CD)
- cast PC 1.0 second GCD (5.5 second CD)
- cast AT LEAST one fireball, generally more though. (4 second CD)
- cast AT LEAST one pyroblast, basically guaranteed 2 though) (3 second CD)
- cast 1x inferno blast (1 second CD)

With the above method, in the absolute 100% worst case scenario while having very high haste, you're only 1 gcd off. This has literally never happened to me, and the above method usually gets me 50k+ ignites.

[Valounette]

I didn't sim it, but I did do a lot of practising on both raid bosss and dummies.

I always do get pyro with IB -> fireball -> place pc -> fireball (until HU, which if the initial fireball pre-PC crit is already up) -> fireball -> pyroblast spam. I have NEVER had the issue of not having double IB available like this. Why? Because:

You didn't explicitly mention what to do (cancel fireball or not) if you got both Pyro+HU from the Fireball which would usually be before Inferno blast.

Example:

1) Fireball spam until heating up
2) Queue up Inferno blast when you see HU..
3) Inferno blast for Pyro proc, previous Fireball still in flight for up to 0.75seconds
4) <Right here, you say to cast another Fireball> ; but what happen if the previous, in flight Fireball crit?

Options:

-Break the cast, lose a GCD but go into PC with Pyro + HU
-Continue as you said, let the next Fireball go through, not care about wasting the HU, continue with Fireballs as needed on crystal

From what you've wrote, it seems you would go with the latter option.

However, it seems that you justify the latter option with the fact that 2x Inferno blast charges will always be ready, since you used a lot of time Fireball'ing. While indeed this is true, it can be also be achieved simply by using 1-2 Blast waves beforehand, and then going into the Fireball>Pyroblast burst.

There are more downsides to Fireballing like that on the crystal too. For example, it's very common that you won't be able to fit in both (or any) Blast waves if you have to do 3 Fireballs (or even 2, if you get 3 Pyroblast procs, or get a 4set proc during Pyroblasting. In fact, if you've spent 2 GCD's on fireball then get 4set proc after unloading pyroblasts, it's difficult to fit in all 3 4set Pyroblasts and a double Inferno Blast before the crystal expires, let alone fitting in two Blast waves. I feel missing out Blast waves on the crystal, is by itself, justifying missing a Fireball GCD; since losing the 30% damage mod on Blast waving 2-3 targets (Iron maidens) is much more of a damage loss.

Lastly, there is RNG. At 700ilvl I still feel that it's not rare at all to go 4 Fireballs without a crit when trinkets aren't up. Sometimes even 5! If this were to happen on crystal, it's gameover for that combust. I would rather eliminate that this can ever happen.

Lastly, it's worth pointing out (since much of your post was about reaching 2 IB charges in time): If a Fireball is cancelled (to drop PC with both pyro+HU), the cancelled cast still counts towards the GCD waiting for an IB recharge, making an arguement for ''this method ensures reaching 2 charges in time'' to be irrelevant, and the only remaining factor to be ''which method consistently deals more damage''.

For now, how I play my PC depends on whether or not I have a crit trinket proc up. With it down, I won't risk the vast amount of downsides to Fireballing the crystal until HU; instead I just wait for pyro+hu, cancel the next Fireball cast and drop the crystal. If crit trinket is up, i.e. on the pull and sometimes rarely syncing with my PC otherwise, then sure, I'll accept going with only a Pyroblast, and Fireball the crystal (at most it has ever taken me two fireballs, but usually just requires one), though it's still worth noting that if I get a lot of Pyroblasts/4set, this will mean possibly losing out on one Blast wave

[Wilderness]

You shouldn't have to worry about #3 and #4. You will know by the time your GCD ends from the IB in #3 if your Fireball crit, and then you can proceed from there. If it crit, drop PC and go from there; if not, cast 1 FB then drop PC and proceed.

[Abraxis]

4) <Right here, you say to cast another Fireball> ; but what happen if the previous, in flight Fireball crit?

Isn't that mentioned Fireball the one, who is incast (inflight)?

So you never have to stopcast?

HU -> FB+IB -> PC

If FB crit you can directly start FB -> Pyrochain on PC
If FB doesn't crit you still have Pyroprocc and can cast FB till HU und start Pyrochain

Edit: oops yep, that's what i ment. Fixed it.

[nickseng]

HU -> FB+IB -> FB -> PC

If FB crit you can directly start FB -> Pyrochain on PC
If FB doesn't crit you still have Pyroprocc and can cast FB till HU und start Pyrochain

I think the issue is that the HU -> FB+IB portion already generates a Pyro! and HU proc, but by the time you register it, you're already in the middle of the Fireball cast. If you were to go to PC at this point, you'd potentially waste a Pyro! proc if the Fireball Crits.

[Fleks]

Opener i do is:
pre pyro-->fireball-->Ib(if pyro critted)-->Pc - best case is that FB was a crit and i have Hu+Pyro
--->Fireball-->Pyro-->fireball--->pyro-->pyro-->(pyro)
Second fireball on Pc is just to make enough time to have 2 Ib´s ready and to have atleast 3 casts building my ignite if im unlucky.

If prepull pyro does not crit,i just use a second or third(if super bad rng) fireball.

no problems at all with this,only if the first Pyro! gets me a 4pc procc,in that case i instantly pop pc,pyro three times and combust on Pc



Edit: for the blastwave part--> here thats the "dream" imo
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/fp ... end=925989" target="_blank

[Persapien]

So do I combust the crystal and then 2xIB, or do I do 2xIB first and combust the boss?

[Dutchmagoz]

So do I combust the crystal and then 2xIB, or do I do 2xIB first and combust the boss?

2x ib and then combust the boss.

[Trustbucket]

I actually wonder a bit about this, because the current theories in terms of how to play PC-Fire all discuss the ideal situation on what to do (PC -> Build ignite -> double IB), but not a lot of discussion on what "Plan B" is when it fails, ie. PC -> Fireball+Pyro both don't crit, IB still not yet recovered.

It's an unwritten rule that "Plan B" is pull the plug.

Doesn't really chance how you react to this bad RNG whether you have crystal or not imo, its just obviously more of a loss and higher RNG swing. If you use IB on pull and get bad crits all you can do is use a IB before combusting if you are far enough from the target or just have a shit ignite and cut your losses. Either that or if you have a HU and 1 IB charge you can IB and pyro depending on your current ignite and procs. Don't see another way around this, there's no way to make a good combust out of bad rng during crystal since you don't have time to get another pyro chain off on the crystal before the second set of procs expire (if trinkets procced properly before pull).

Personally I just hold my IB for after the pyro chain since, with the haste trinket and/ or lust, bad RNG can easily mean your second IB will not be up for when the first comes off GCD and fireballs almost always crit with Crit trinket proc and worst case if it doesn't you can try again to get an pyro! and HU proc before you use crystal and before the second set of trinket procs expire (again assuming they proc correctly) meaning you don't waste PC as much if you get bad crits. Personal preference maybe but from testing and comparing with relative conditions it seems to be more consistent but could very well be skewed results for other reasons.