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[7.2] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Guides and discussions of all things specific to the Pyromaniacs of Azeroth.

[7.2] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Frosted » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:46 pm

Updated 03/27/2017

USE THE NIGHTLY BUILD: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D


Below I've put together some basic information for people derived from SimC runs to help guide mages choices on how they want to play Fire mage.

All sims are done at Mythic NH ilvl, with max artifact traits, 1 in Concordance, and no legendary items.

Sim conditions:

fixed_time=1
max_time=300
vary_combat_length=0.2
iterations=5000
default_actions=1
race=troll
Table of Contents:

1)Single Target Talent Comparisons
2)Single Target Stat Weights
3a)Four Target Talent Comparisons
3b)Four Target Priority Target DPS
3c)Four Target Stat Weights
4)Fire Racials
5)Trinket Comparsions
6)Artifact Path
7)Legendary Items
8)Relics
9)Frequently Asked Questions

Single Target

Note 1: CiS assumed 6 cinders hit.
Note 2: Because I used fixed_time, Firestarter becomes way overvalued, so I've excluded it from sims.
Note 3: Due to the number of talent combinations, these two images only shows the top and bottom performers. If you want to see the full HTML report, please use the dropbox link at the end of the post.
TOP
Image

BOTTOM
Image

Note: The MI/CiS talent rows are not set in stone. if CiS/Met or RoP/MI are better for you is gear dependant. Sim yourself for best results.

Single Target Stat Weights


Image

Note: Haste value here is heavily inflated due to Whispers in the Dark and Metronome. WotD is effectively a multiplier on haste value, and haste allows for higher average uptimes on metronome stacks. If you remove WotD, or if you don't have it, you will probably notice haste value being significantly lower.

Image
Image courtesy of Architech.

There is a small breakpoint that you want to grab for Fire though - probably has to do with fitting an additional global inside Combustion. It's a very low
haste value (1800, as shown), so it is easily obtainable without really disrupting your gearing. However, because this breakpoint exists, keep in mind it will
make the haste stat weight around the breakpoint unreliable!

Four target (stacked):

NOTE: CiS here assumes all cinders are hitting the targets ("stacked adds") So it's overvaluing CiS here a bit if the adds are spread out significantly.
As with Single Target, there are simply too many combinations to show them all here. So I have once again shown just the top and bottom performers.

TOP
Image

BOTTOM
Image


Four Target Priority Target DPS


TOP
Image

BOTTOM
Image


Four Target Stat Weights


Using the highest simming combination, Conf/RoP/FO/LB/CiS, the weights are:

Image


Racials


Image

Trinkets (not updated for 7.2)



Simple Trinket List:

Single Target:
Image

4target AoE:
Image


Artifact Path


Image courtesy of Zulandia
Image

7.2 path - Tries to optimizing ST / AoE evenly rather than rushing for new things. New traits are pretty bad ST (See below comparison)
Image

Legendaries!


1 target
Image

4 targets
Image


Relics


Image

7.2 trait comparison (1 point given to each)
Image

Frequently Asked Questions


Q1) Is Living Bomb a Single Target Gain or Loss?

Image

Q2) Enchants?
Image


using the simc fire default: T19M_NH profiles.
Last edited by Frosted on Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:38 pm, edited 38 times in total.
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendarie

Unread post by Architech » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:46 pm

The Purpose of this post is to provide some guidance to commonly asked questions regarding to gearing. What is presented would best be called rules of thumb. For your specific gear situation - You will most likely need to sim yourself.

The following is guidelines for Emerald Nightmare Mythic Gearing. Sims where done in a 26 point artifact with either EN mythic gear - and only gear available in EN used only. Heroic gear is not considered here because it is of approximate equivalent iLevel to M+ gear.

Artifact used for sims
Spoiler:
Image


Gear Used for Mythic Simulations
Spoiler:
Image


Question: Approximately How many item levels is a socket worth on a piece of gear?
Answer: First lets divide gear into Four categories
A) Trinkets
B) Jewelry (Neck, Rings)
C) Main Pieces (Chest, Helm, Legs)
D) Small Pieces (Wrists, shoulders etc)

Of these sub categories, trinkets are to complicated to deal with so "sim yourself". Each trinket scales slightly differently with item level so a rule of thumb is impractical.

Of the remaining categories, of note is jewelry does not have any intellect thus we see that on a Neck, a socket is worth approx 20 Item levels.

Image
Sim done on Oct 15th

For Wrists, a socket is worth approx 10 item levels
Image
Sim done on Oct 10th

For a Chest, a socket is worth 5-10 item levels
Image
Sim done on Oct 15th

Question: So if sockets are good, how good are the jewelcrafting crafted neck?
Answer: good, the on use is very good - See Below for some sims of the crafted neck. Get a crafted neck. Be mindful of the stamina on necks however. I would use an 880 socketed xavius neck over the crafted neck on defensive merits.

Image
Sim done on Oct 15th

Question: Some BOE/Crafted Jewelry can roll 100% crit - how good is that?
Answer: See the Below Summary for the Vastly Oversized ring. A pure crit piece is worth about 5 item levels over a split stat piece. Note that on different gear set ups and lower item levels it can be seen that a pure crit may be worth more than 5 item levels. when in doubt, sim your self here.

Image
Sim done on Oct 15th

Question: Which Relic Should I Use?

Answer: Really you should sim yourself, as this example likely changes as the relative ilevel of each relic changes. However, I will attempt to create a rule of thumb based on the following sims:

This shows, that for an artifact having the best EN Mythic relics (2x Fire ball cast time and 1x Ignite damage) how many item levels each of the traits (obtained from mythic +) needs to be better:
Image
Sim done on Oct 16th

From the above graph, I suggest the following rule of thumb for single target DPS in using an M+ relic:

Pyroblast Damage - Better at any (5) item level increase
Crit Damage - Better at any (5) item level increase
Fireball Cast Time - Default relic in this comparison
Ignite Damage - Better at any (5) item level increase
Fire Blast Damage - Better at any (5) item level increase
Fire Ball Damage - Equal DPS at 5 Item level increase better at 10 or more item levels above a Fireball cast time relic
Cauterizing Blink Relic - Better at 10 or more item levels above a Raid Relic
Flame Strike Damage - Better at 10 or more item levels above a Raid Relic
Molten Armor Relic - Better at 10 or more item levels above a Raid Relic

IMPORTANT this if item level of the relic, not how many item levels the relic gives the artifact wep.

Note that the Flame strike, Molten armor or blink nodes have zero impact on single target damage

See spoiler Below for raw data
Spoiler:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12LAInNZDcxsr2PDEl4GKT6gG07x-WvXWQzBuac7boDk/edit?usp=sharing

Image



Click the spoiler below to see Information relevant to the 840-850 item level range

Spoiler:
All Sims in this post were done with the same set of gear used by Frosted for an 840 pre raid mage - Thus these rules are really only valid for the 840~ item level range.

Question: Approximately How many item levels is a socket worth on a piece of gear?
Answer: First lets divide gear into Four categories
A) Trinkets
B) Jewelry (Neck, Rings)
C) Main Pieces (Chest, Helm, Legs)
D) Small Pieces (Wrists, shoulders etc)

Of these sub categories, trinkets are to complicated to deal with so "sim yourself". Each trinket scales slightly differently with item level so a rule of thumb is impractical.

Of the remaining categories, of note is jewelry does not have any intellect thus we see that on a Neck, a socket is worth approx 25 Item levels.

Image
Sim done on Sep 9th

For a Chest, a socket is worth approx 10 item levels
Image
Sim done on Sep 9th

For Wrists, a socket is worth approx 15 item levels
Image
Sim done on Sep 9th

Question: So if sockets are good, how good are the jewelcrafting crafted neck and ring?
Answer: good - below is for a Crit/Mastery crafted neck (which is probably not the best possible combo, which would likely be pure crit)
Image
Sim done on Sep 9th

Question: How many item levels higher does a piece with no crit, or crit as the minor stat have to be in order to be worth using?
Answer: This is a very broad question, and likely needs to be simmed individually. To provide a rule of thumb, I again will break this question down into the same categories.

Presented is a comparison of a mastery/crit (minor crit) piece like http://www.wowhead.com/item=133614/fros ... bonus=1727 and a mastery/haste piece like http://www.wowhead.com/item=137314/wris ... bonus=1727 compared to a "correctly" itemized Crit/Mastery piece like http://www.wowhead.com/item=134437/harr ... bonus=1727

For Necks, a crit-minor piece may replace a crit neck at 30 or more item level increase. A non crit piece should never replace a crit neck (even at ilevel cap, 895).
Image
Sim done on Aug 27th

For Chests, a crit-minor piece may replace a crit chest at 10 or more item level increase. A non crit piece may replace a crit chest at a 20 item level increase.
Image
Sim done on Aug 27th

For Wrists, a crit-minor piece may replace a crit wrist at 10 or more item level increase. A non crit piece may replace a crit wrist at a 20 item level increase.

Image
Sim done on Aug 27th

Question: Changing races is expensive, how do races look at higher item level, so I may make a decision for down the line as well as now?
Answer: The Following is a sim of races for fire, scaled to 875 with out tier bonuses. This is as far as I am okay going, knowing that blizzard changes things.

Image
Sim done on Aug 27th

Off note here is the
A) the separation from the pack of troll and dwarf
Note: Due to the Aug 22 CM Hot Fix, Humans "scaling" looks much worse then before.

Question: Having 3x of the best relic (PB Damage), how much higher itemlevel
does a relic with another node need to be in order to be an upgrade?


Answer: Really you should sim yourself, as this example likely changes as the relative ilevel of each relic changes. However, I will attempt to create a rule of thumb based on the following two sims:

This shows, that for an artifact having 3x of the best relic @ 825 (PB damage) how many item levels each of the traits needs to be better:
Image
Sim done on Aug 27th

Likewise, The below shows the DPS delta of swapping from 3x 840 PBlastDMG relics to various relics at various Item levels

Image
Sim done on Aug 27th

From the above two graphs, I suggest the following rule of thumb for single target DPS in Pre-raid gear:

Crit Damage - Better at any item level increase
Fireball Cast Time - Better at any item level increase
Ignite Damage - Better at any item level increase
Fire Blast Damage - Better at A 10 item level increase, Equal at +5 Item levels
Fire Ball Damage - Better at 10 or more item levels above a Pyroblast relic
Cauterizing Blink Relic - Better at 15 or more item levels above a Pyroblast relic
Flame Strike Damage - Better at 15 or more item levels above a Pyroblast relic
Molten Armor Relic - Better at 15 or more item levels above a Pyroblast relic

Note that the Flame strike, Molten armor or blink nodes have zero impact on single target damage

The below contains the unfiltered sim results that generates the above plot
Change from 3x 825 PB Dmg relics

Image
Sim done on Aug 27th

Change from 3x 840 PB Dmg relics

Image
Sim done on Aug 27th

Question: From Frosted's post - it seems I can gain some single target DPS by dropping mastery in favor of haste and versatility - is that True?
Answer: Maybe

On a theoretical level, swapping 2k mastery for haste may net you ~ 500 DPS and 2k mastery to versatility about 1500 DPS

Image

However, you need to be intelligent in doing this. Haste/Versatility/Mastery are not the only stat on Gear! Pay attention to the crit as well. http://www.wowhead.com/item=137483/cape ... bonus=1727 has significantly less crit than http://www.wowhead.com/item=134411/iceb ... bonus=1727 at the same item level, and crit is still the best stat.
Last edited by Architech on Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:15 am, edited 58 times in total.
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendarie

Unread post by Frosted » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:01 am

Updated OP with fixed trinket sims, using correct ilvl darkmoon card trinket.
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Trylldom » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:56 pm

Not gonna say anything productive, just thanks A LOT for all this information and work.
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Bearglove » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:42 pm

Thanks for the awesome work.

Thoughts on non-demon trinkets? Spiked Tongue/Manacracker?
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Intervir » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:54 am

Thanks for all. Still reading it
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Firepit » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:05 am

Thank you so much Frosted! I was hoping that someone would get into this much detail and answer all of my questions.

The level of nerdiness sprinkled through this post is just creamy.

*tips mage fedora*

-Ally
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by tadeqt » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:25 pm

Thanks so much for your work, this is an amazing post.

After all that, this is the only thing I was left wondering about as well:

Bearglove wrote:Thoughts on non-demon trinkets? Spiked Tongue/Manacracker?
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Ace24 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:56 pm

That's some very serious info over there.
Well done and thank you!
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by versy » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:51 pm

Thanks for all this info frosted..its just what i was looking for and will keep me busy:-) well done as usual
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Frosted » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:28 pm

Bearglove wrote:Thoughts on non-demon trinkets? Spiked Tongue/Manacracker?


Those are included in the sims. With non-demon, you can just move the heirloom trinket near the bottom of the "top" performing pairs list and shift everything else up. So Tongue/Manacracker becomes the highest performing trinket pair.
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Firemancer » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:57 pm

Awesome work Frosted.
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Crys1s » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:28 pm

Thanks for information
P.S. Artifact Path image doesn't work
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Oriyuna » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:31 pm

Thank you very much for all your work!
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Intervir » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:01 pm

I wonder how long it will take to the BoA trinket get nerfed. It is an item that is not obtainable anymore.

Also, the dg trinkets are too powerfull ATM. I fear a http://www.wowhead.com/item=110004/coag ... &bonus=522 2.0 happening again


edit 08-26: I told you the trinkets were too powerful
Last edited by Intervir on Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Frantik » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:15 pm

Intervir wrote:I wonder how long it will take to the BoA trinket get nerfed. It is an item that is not obtainable anymore.

Also, the dg trinkets are too powerfull ATM. I fear a http://www.wowhead.com/item=110004/coag ... &bonus=522 2.0 happening again



But this will only be relevant for three weeks...after raids open there will be better options..right? :P so maybe they will let them be like that
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Nakatani » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:31 am

I think I am a little confused when it comes to the artifact trait progression image. The image you have posted says to go for Pyretic first while other people I have spoken to say go for Phoenix Reborn should be first then Pyretic. Have I over looked something here? Also great work on this Frosted.
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Mortiferus » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:53 am

Nakatani wrote:I think I am a little confused when it comes to the artifact trait progression image. The image you have posted says to go for Pyretic first while other people I have spoken to say go for Phoenix Reborn should be first then Pyretic. Have I over looked something here? Also great work on this Frosted.


We are telling the Mages in our guild that they can take any path they want while leveling, so long as they have both these goldens for first raid. Which is better while leveling largely depends on the content you're running, but it's also mostly inconsequential. That said, I'm personally following the ST path that Frosted provided.
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

Unread post by Preheat » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:28 am

Image

Adding this since it seems the reason why roboMage is doing less dps with the http://www.wowhead.com/item=132410/shard-of-the-exodar is because it's running OOM. If this gets fixed this is what to expect.
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Re: [7.0] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendarie

Unread post by Krychlik » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:34 pm

Architech wrote:
Question: So if sockets are good, how good are the jewelcrafting crafted neck and ring?
Answer: good - below is for a Crit/Mastery crafted neck (which is probably not the best possible combo, which would likely be pure crit)
Image



What about http://www.wowhead.com/item=131736/prizerock-neckband? 750 crit looks pretty sweet. Only issue might be luck on archeology rotation, it's 1 rare quest biweekly AFAIK.
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