[7.2] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

[incaendius]

There is only so much instant spells you can fit within combustion. Extending the time of combustion won't change that.

[Peitsche]

Well, you can still scorch.

[Imaskar]

IIRC scorch was simmed to be almost equal to PF in terms of combustion effectiveness (counting using PF stacks outseide).

[Imaskar]

Is it possible to fix Firestarter talent in sims? I have a theory I want to test that involves it.

[Fonzey]

Hi All, I just got the Pyrotex Ignition Cloth gloves so simming a few talent combinations. It's only my second DPS legendary so I'm not comparing it against any other legendary combo.

Currently RoP/Meteor comes out quite far ahead with default APL, from doing some dummy testing every second meteor lines up much better with combust, so I'm not wasting any over a fight.

Can anybody confirm though that the standard APL is not gimping Mirror Images? My thought is that the default APL may be holding onto MI waiting for a combust, which would mean wasted MI over a fight. I'm not savvy enough to find out for myself.

[Falq]

Can anybody confirm though that the standard APL is not gimping Mirror Images? My thought is that the default APL may be holding onto MI waiting for a combust, which would mean wasted MI over a fight. I'm not savvy enough to find out for myself.

I'm kinda confused, aren't both MI and Combust 2 min cds? Unless you take kindling ofc, in this case no idea.

[Saróx]

Can anybody confirm though that the standard APL is not gimping Mirror Images? My thought is that the default APL may be holding onto MI waiting for a combust, which would mean wasted MI over a fight. I'm not savvy enough to find out for myself.

I'm kinda confused, aren't both MI and Combust 2 min cds? Unless you take kindling ofc, in this case no idea.

As OP said he got the pyrotex gloves, which reduce the remaining cd of Comb, by 6 seconds for every PF you use, meaning he would be able to reduce the cd with about 18-24 second of every combustion he have. I think the main issue as to why you have MI doing less dmg, is becuase your haste? I'd think that the more haste you build into your build, the more viable MI becomes, and the other way around the more crit/mastery you get the more viable RoP gets.

[Xenost]

The APL doesn't hold MI for Combust nor Combust for MI, but yeah Pyrotex definitely increases the value of RoP over MI (because most of your MI won't benefit from Combust)

[Hasufer]

Anyone thought of stacking crit as high as possible, running kindling and adding pyrotex gloves - 1min combust cd or so on avarage? More so on targets where phoenix reborn can prc more often from several ignite targets.. Form myth+ the gloves are pretty nice, but havn't played around much with Kindling since the patch and I have no idea if it's actually viable for anything raidwise in NH currently Also combust nerf overall should make it less viable than before 7.1.5.

Any thoughts on this subject?

[Fonzey]

The APL doesn't hold MI for Combust nor Combust for MI, but yeah Pyrotex definitely increases the value of RoP over MI (because most of your MI won't benefit from Combust)

Thanks Xenost and Sarox.

I did some more testing and playing last night and RoP/Meteor has definitely pulled ahead for me. I suspect my relatively low stats (<50% Crit since 7.15) is inflating the value of combustion with my meteor compared to somebody who has retained lots of crit since the patch. SimCraft suggests that my Meteor/ROP combo comes out a solid 20k DPS ahead of any MI/Cinderstorm/Kindling combinations that I can throw in, with Kindling coming in dead last despite the gloves.

From a short sample anecdotal point of view my single target DPS has risen nicely with this new combo, on M+13 tyranical bosses last night. Will try it out for real in NH this evening, though I still think I'll drop to Cinderstorm for Skorpyon and maybe spellblade.

Finally, shout out to the Mickey Mouse graphics on these gloves - particularly on my massive Orc hands, they look great.

[vlue]

Hope someone can take the time off to provide some math and some insight for these few questions. If you have answers for these please show the math behind it! Don't want to be basing these without any math behind it.

1. Meteoring inside of combust vs right before combust. Apparantly, looking at the top 10 fire mages on Trillax and Krosus, meteoring right before combust is a thing, and they do not wait for 5 PI stacks. Numbers on these?

2. Top mages such as Dylemma, while watching his Krosus kill vid, ran cinderstorm. Totally understandable, but his cinderstorm rotation in combust bugs me. First, he dosent cinderstorm > combust before cinders hit, which is what we were told was a DPS increase, and instead he cinderstorms inside his combustion. Thoughts on that?

3. Cinderstorm sims higher with higher haste, and my character does too. I sim at 644k with Cinderstorm, and 642k with Meteor. However, while running cinderstorm on a dummy, i hit 40k less than my sims (610k), with all 6 cinders hitting each time (I use Details! to check all cinders hitting). With meteor, I hit above my sims at 670k on a 5 minute window. When taking Cinderstorm, I always Cinderstorm before combust for all 6 cinders to hit, and do my normal combust rotation (With DB helm i squeeze a DB at the end of combust). Outside of combust i Cinderstorm on CD.

4. I have seen mages using pyro procs on combust. Totally understand that this is a DPS increase, but would like some numbers on this. Is this really a DPS increase no matter what? Or do some things factor in? eg. secondary stats, RoP vs no RoP, etc.

Thanks for reading!

[Shitbird]

I have seen mages using pyro procs on combust. Totally understand that this is a DPS increase, but would like some numbers on this. Is this really a DPS increase no matter what? Or do some things factor in? eg. secondary stats, RoP vs no RoP, etc.

Thanks for reading!

Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. Seems like the conventional wisdom when I got the bracers was that you should never use up a large chunk of your combustion time hard-casting, and just save the proc for after combust, but I'm seeing a lot of people doing exactly that in top parses.

Is it really worth it to hardcast a pyro during combustion with the bracer proc?

[Hasufer]

Think about it like this

O̶p̶e̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶b̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶u̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶h̶c̶-̶p̶y̶r̶o̶ ̶d̶u̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶b̶u̶s̶t̶,̶ ̶n̶a̶t̶u̶r̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶u̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶c̶k̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶P̶F̶+̶F̶B̶'̶s̶ ̶r̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶k̶e̶e̶p̶ ̶r̶o̶l̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶n̶s̶t̶a̶ ̶p̶y̶r̶o̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶u̶r̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶+̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶t̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶ ̶b̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶b̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶e̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶(̶o̶r̶ ̶l̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶i̶t̶)̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶b̶i̶t̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶R̶n̶G̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶5̶%̶l̶o̶w̶e̶r̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶^̶^̶ - Corrected, actually wasn't sure about this either, but never heard that ppl HC pyro on the first - mb!

second,third, fourth combust(etc) u might have a hc-pyro hanging or just procced, seconds before u go for combust - if u run with MI, u often use PF's (outside RoP) as u do not run RoP ST thus leading to maybe having 1-2 PF+ 1,2,3 FB's rd for the combust phase.
If u time it right, u can either hc-pyro cast, combust in the end of the cast for a 100%crit+combust benefit, (RoP if talented, else continue normal combust burn after) and burn for 8.5 sec in that combust with usual pf,pyro, fb, pyro rotation etc.
If the hc-pyro proc occurs, say 1-2 sec into the combust, u migth already have used a PF+/or FB and thus have 7-8 secs left of combust where u can still hc-pyro for max benefit and fit in the rest of the instants u want, in the last seconds of the combust. You furthermore wont have to channel e.g. scorch/fireball to proc pyros to use during combust. Also remember u wanna get a meteor or CiS into the combust window, whenever possibly/synched properly!
The more haste the better overall for this to work, naturally!
Once u get 20%+ haste it starts to feel quite a natural way to play around the bracer (also trinkets with haste as erratic and whispers really makes this beastmode at times, so aim for those for ST at least - or a stat stick .
(If u get pheramere trinket on a high proc it can also be considered, despite the int loss. Furthermore with the decent haste scaling nowadays, unless u just reached a haste bp - and maybe even in connection with RoP use for certain fights - each second pheramere use will be guaranteed crit+40% dmg from RoP)

[Xenost]

It's a DPS increase to HC pyro during a combust (on pure ST fight), being the first or another combust is not important in that regard.

[illwil]

Is it a huge dps increae? my reason for asking is because during some fight mechanics hard casting a pyro and having it fail would be a huge detriment and waste of pyro. If its not a massive increase there may be times where doing a pyro with all instants and being able to move could be the better choice instead of risking wasting a couple seconds of combustion.

[Lahrast]

Is it a huge dps increae? my reason for asking is because during some fight mechanics hard casting a pyro and having it fail would be a huge detriment and waste of pyro. If its not a massive increase there may be times where doing a pyro with all instants and being able to move could be the better choice instead of risking wasting a couple seconds of combustion.

it's totally worth it when you can get the resulting ignite to spread (managed 400-500k ignites that way), otherwise i'd like to follow the rule to just "roll with it" but it's nice to keep it in the back of your head, especially when you open with lust and get an early proc it's easy to manage (especially with the guldan trinket, my god those 2s pyros feel good)

[Imaskar]

There may be a minimum haste when it becomes viable, because to use 40% of combust on that one cast is a bit excessive.

[Fonzey]

As the HC Pyro would need to land within the duration of Combustion too, your window of time is really quite small.

Any proc within the first half of combust, I'll consider for a HC - anything after that and I just pool it for after combust. Especially when I'm running RoP, I'll just back to back the first two RoP and use my HC then.

[Falq]

As the HC Pyro would need to land within the duration of Combustion too, your window of time is really quite small.

Doesn't Pyroblast snapshot stats at the end of the cast rather than landing on target?

[illwil]

There may be a minimum haste when it becomes viable, because to use 40% of combust on that one cast is a bit excessive.

well when it's worth 4 pyroblasts it's kinda worth it in that sense. especially if it frees up some phoenix flames and fire blasts