[7.2] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

[lwqyt]

Why exactly is the Spiked Tongue "so much" better then the Horn of valor. The horn seems to look so much better, or does the spiked Tongue give us more steady dps and overall it's a dps push, while the horn would only buff our burst phases ?

[Raplord]

Hello,

I just post again as it seems lost in the previous page :

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Thanks for this awesome works it will helps a lot !

I still have 3 questions concerning the rotations used during your simulations :

- Are you using flamestrike in AOE sim ? If yes how many targets do you need to use flamestrike over pyro ?

- How do you manage flame on while using kindle talent (the one available when combustion is not up) ? Are you using it with the second charge of RoP then delaying combustion untill flame on is up OR are you saving flame on to use combustion as soon as possible ?

- Will you continue this awesome job using NE items (especially for trinket) ?

Thanks !

PS : Sorry for my english, it is not my native language

Flamestrike is only used if you have Flame Patch with 3+ targets. Without it, it's not worth casting in a sustained AOE situation.


You sit on FO for the next Combustion.

Yes, I'll continue updating this post throughout all of Legion. As we get closer to Raids (prolly weekend before) I'll update the trinket lists to include all EN trinkets.

You sit on FO for the next Combustion - you sure about this mate? Because I've found that using FO on CD (at around 47s I guess into the encounter) makes it possible to use combustion with FO again by delaying combustion by like 10 secs (and still get the full duration before the encounter ends). Isn't it more about how many FO/Comb you're gonna fit into fight rather than a strict "save FO for combustion"?

edit: I guess tho that the more crit you have the easier it'll be to get combustion closer to that 2nd FO rather than delaying it for the 3rd one

[ariciul]

Quick question, and i`m sorry if info is in other posts.

I saw this topic is created just before release. In the mean time we've had the Critical Mass nerf. Are the trinket sims still accurate? Have you done new sims and replaced the pictures?

[lwqyt]

yes he did they are uptodate

[fylle]

is there a point that we could have like too much crit compared to our other stats. i mean crit is by far our main stat but is there a % where we would not want to have more crit, or would we always just want to stack as much crit as possible even though our other stats gets very low?

[Laere]

TBH i don't hold onto the second FO for the 2nd combustion. I use the 2nd FO with a ROP. Usually by my 2nd combust I have to maybe wait 10-14 sec for FO to be up and can start combust a bit early and still get the full rotation in. That's just me personally.

[Covery]

TBH i don't hold onto the second FO for the 2nd combustion. I use the 2nd FO with a ROP. Usually by my 2nd combust I have to maybe wait 10-14 sec for FO to be up and can start combust a bit early and still get the full rotation in. That's just me personally.

This is what im also doing usually.
Actually these questions aren't so much for "how should i play" but im just wondering how is "playing" this simulated mage.

Im also surprise by flamestrike for 10+ targets.. If i check spellpower difference it shall be already more interresting than pyro with at least 4 targets. I keep in mind that it cannot crit.. so i usually start flamestrike with 6+ targets.

[willemh]

I think a more in-dept discussion/theorycrafting about optimal 5-man play would be nice. Basically you can see a dungeon as a very long (20-30 minutes) boss fight with some aoe phases and single target phases. Too many players seem to think trash pulls arn't important in dungeons and save cooldowns for bosses when in reality in an optimal play situation trash pulls are more important (and harder) by far. Some dungeons are literally 1 huge trash pull untill boss>aoe everything down (quite hard, burst dps is very important so use cooldowns)>kill boss in chill mode without cooldowns, maiby 1 set of cooldowns towards the end of the fight when they come back up>1 huge trash pull untill next boss when played optimally.

At the moment 99% of the mages still seems to be gearing based on a 5 minute 'single target' sim situation, when in reality 99% of the content you do the coming weeks is going to be a big aoe fest with small 1.5 minute single target phases. Some theorycrafting and talent discussion on dungeons would be great!

Also, does anyone have an idea about the BIS trinkets for 5-mans (aka 'AoE situations'). Been running many dungeons, and expect to run a lot more, so optimising for single target seems like a bad idea atm. Was personally thinking the Alchemist Stone+Stormsinger Fulmination Charge would be a good choice in non-demon situations.

[lwqyt]

As for talents Imo conf->fo->rop->lb->kind will be the go for. Because of Kindling u can easylie(dafuq how is this word written Oo) pop combustion and rop on trash mobs relativly often. And because lb is so strong right now its a must have for every dungeon except maybe violet hold.

Also cinderstorm will be shit in myth+ imo because of its randomness, even one extra mobgoup pulled can wipe u out easylie and ruin your whole time.

[Curnivore]

I think a more in-dept discussion/theorycrafting about optimal 5-man play would be nice. Basically you can see a dungeon as a very long (20-30 minutes) boss fight with some aoe phases and single target phases. Too many players seem to think trash pulls arn't important in dungeons and save cooldowns for bosses when in reality in an optimal play situation trash pulls are more important (and harder) by far. Some dungeons are literally 1 huge trash pull untill boss>aoe everything down (quite hard, burst dps is very important so use cooldowns)>kill boss in chill mode without cooldowns, maiby 1 set of cooldowns towards the end of the fight when they come back up>1 huge trash pull untill next boss when played optimally.

At the moment 99% of the mages still seems to be gearing based on a 5 minute 'single target' sim situation, when in reality 99% of the content you do the coming weeks is going to be a big aoe fest with small 1.5 minute single target phases. Some theorycrafting and talent discussion on dungeons would be great!

Also, does anyone have an idea about the BIS trinkets for 5-mans (aka 'AoE situations'). Been running many dungeons, and expect to run a lot more, so optimising for single target seems like a bad idea atm. Was personally thinking the Alchemist Stone+Stormsinger Fulmination Charge would be a good choice in non-demon situations.

The 2min cd is kinda tricky because you can usually use it on the first trash pull and then you have no idea if the second trash pull that can use it will be convenient for having it on a boss and it's very unclear sometimes if you have time or if you will be off by 20 seconds. The melees with 1 min CDs are quite overpowered because of that.

Single target optimization is not stupid even when there are more targets. This is because priority targets are often important to die before other targets.

I wonder if simcraft is ready for all those 5man trinkets.

[willemh]

I think a more in-dept discussion/theorycrafting about optimal 5-man play would be nice. Basically you can see a dungeon as a very long (20-30 minutes) boss fight with some aoe phases and single target phases. Too many players seem to think trash pulls arn't important in dungeons and save cooldowns for bosses when in reality in an optimal play situation trash pulls are more important (and harder) by far. Some dungeons are literally 1 huge trash pull untill boss>aoe everything down (quite hard, burst dps is very important so use cooldowns)>kill boss in chill mode without cooldowns, maiby 1 set of cooldowns towards the end of the fight when they come back up>1 huge trash pull untill next boss when played optimally.

At the moment 99% of the mages still seems to be gearing based on a 5 minute 'single target' sim situation, when in reality 99% of the content you do the coming weeks is going to be a big aoe fest with small 1.5 minute single target phases. Some theorycrafting and talent discussion on dungeons would be great!

Also, does anyone have an idea about the BIS trinkets for 5-mans (aka 'AoE situations'). Been running many dungeons, and expect to run a lot more, so optimising for single target seems like a bad idea atm. Was personally thinking the Alchemist Stone+Stormsinger Fulmination Charge would be a good choice in non-demon situations.

The 2min cd is kinda tricky because you can usually use it on the first trash pull and then you have no idea if the second trash pull that can use it will be convenient for having it on a boss and it's very unclear sometimes if you have time or if you will be off by 20 seconds. The melees with 1 min CDs are quite overpowered because of that.

Single target optimization is not stupid even when there are more targets. This is because priority targets are often important to die before other targets.

I wonder if simcraft is ready for all those 5man trinkets.

Well, the thing is, its quite often more important to pop cooldowns on trash then it is to have them up for bosses. Trashpulls are generally harder then bosses when you're playing efficiently and pull pretty much all trash from boss to boss, and you only have so-long to blow them up quickly before the healer/tank gets overwhelmed. I personally use all my cooldowns every time when I know my current targets wont die in the following ~15 seconds, no matter if its a shitty trash vyrkul berserker, portal guardian or a boss because in the end the only thing that matters when clearing efficient is your overall damage over the whole dungeon. Hell, there are even plenty of situations where you dont even use cooldowns on bosses because you know you will pull a whole hallway afterwards and you will wipe if you dont have your cooldowns available to blow it all up quickly.

Dungeons are just such a different world then raids are, and I believe with the focus on mythic+ this expansion they deserve some more theorycrafting and discussion.

[Psycee]

Maybe i missed it but i didnt read anything about entchants or i am wrong? I think there are not much options. Intellect on cloak, crit und ring and claw enchant on neck?

[phenix]

The Caged Horror trinket isn't part of the sims. Is there a reason behind it or it was just forgotten? Wandering how it compares to the rest. There are some reports that it's a bit buggy also.

[Darkwraith01]

Quick question: I know it´s way too early to discuss DPS differences in sims (just saw SimulationCrafrt.org), but is Feral THAT much ahead of everything else as of now???

[skiz]

I think a more in-dept discussion/theorycrafting about optimal 5-man play would be nice. Basically you can see a dungeon as a very long (20-30 minutes) boss fight with some aoe phases and single target phases. Too many players seem to think trash pulls arn't important in dungeons and save cooldowns for bosses when in reality in an optimal play situation trash pulls are more important (and harder) by far. Some dungeons are literally 1 huge trash pull untill boss>aoe everything down (quite hard, burst dps is very important so use cooldowns)>kill boss in chill mode without cooldowns, maiby 1 set of cooldowns towards the end of the fight when they come back up>1 huge trash pull untill next boss when played optimally.

At the moment 99% of the mages still seems to be gearing based on a 5 minute 'single target' sim situation, when in reality 99% of the content you do the coming weeks is going to be a big aoe fest with small 1.5 minute single target phases. Some theorycrafting and talent discussion on dungeons would be great!

Also, does anyone have an idea about the BIS trinkets for 5-mans (aka 'AoE situations'). Been running many dungeons, and expect to run a lot more, so optimising for single target seems like a bad idea atm. Was personally thinking the Alchemist Stone+Stormsinger Fulmination Charge would be a good choice in non-demon situations.

Hard to answer such things without going into rotations, too.

T15 . conflag
T45 . rune of power
T60 . flame on
T90 . living bomb
T100 . cinderstorm

Trinkets: Prophecy of fear, Void tendrils. I do change PoF for bosses to heirloom or any other decent RPPM trinket does it.

Rune of Power and flame on is debatable. But the playstile is kind of fun and it usually scales decently. Conflag is way to good on multiple targets and scales incredible with PoF, too. But it sadly requires you to actually do a fireball every now and then on trash. (This does not change the rotation, and keeping it on multiple targets up is nothing you should aim for.) Cinderstorm is awesome on multiple targets, also has some silly PoF scaling. Living bomb is silly.

Heroic dungeons heavily depends on group setup. If I'm with a ww monk I'm just AFK until boss then do my rotation. On weak dps setups / random groups I just hope that the tank pulls roughly 4-5 mobs and I'm going to do a burst with cooldowns. I need to desync void tendrils from combustion (not using them together) on trash, because the damage is usually way to much. Keeping cooldowns for bosses is something I just do with a heavy burst dps setup where we kill a boss in less than 1 minute. So I literally just use cooldowns on cooldown on trash.

Burst is usually: Living bomb, Rune of power with iceflows while positioning myself, cinderstorm, pyro / fireball / phoenixflame spam. I do recommend to not use more than 2 PF charges during combustion so that you keep 1 charge and to mostly get out of combustion with 1 IB charge which helps not running into pure fireball spam. This changes with bloodlust. Did phoenix reborn before Pyretic on artefact, so I can easily burst every ~45 second with Flame on and roughly 2-3 phoenix flames (using 3 without combustion on RoP).

Worth to mention:
- Cinderstorm and LB mostly on cooldown.
- We do 0 damage outside burst dps and if we're unable to do our burst we'll be way under the tank.
- Phoenixflames during RoP outside combustion > Phoenixflames during RoP with Combustion
- Ignite relic > crit relic = pyro relic > fire at will relic. Atleast on AoE because cinderstorm.
- You want crit on gear.
- Void tendrils and PoF are fucking awesome for early heroics but you'll later on use different trinkets. PoF needs a nerf on AoE before raid opening.

[Frosted]

stuff

If you are running kindling, yes, you basically sit on FO if you won't have it up for the following combustion.

[Frosted]

is there a point that we could have like too much crit compared to our other stats. i mean crit is by far our main stat but is there a % where we would not want to have more crit, or would we always just want to stack as much crit as possible even though our other stats gets very low?

Maybe, eventually. From what we looked at during the beta this wasn't the case though.

[Frosted]

TBH i don't hold onto the second FO for the 2nd combustion. I use the 2nd FO with a ROP. Usually by my 2nd combust I have to maybe wait 10-14 sec for FO to be up and can start combust a bit early and still get the full rotation in. That's just me personally.

If you are delaying combustion while using kindling there really is very little reason to be using kindling.

[Weezdion]

TBH i don't hold onto the second FO for the 2nd combustion. I use the 2nd FO with a ROP. Usually by my 2nd combust I have to maybe wait 10-14 sec for FO to be up and can start combust a bit early and still get the full rotation in. That's just me personally.

If you are delaying combustion while using kindling there really is very little reason to be using kindling.

If you are going to fire of same number of Combustions during a fight with and without Kindling, talent is 100% wasted. If you get one more Combustion for a fight it is gain no matter what.

[Frosted]

TBH i don't hold onto the second FO for the 2nd combustion. I use the 2nd FO with a ROP. Usually by my 2nd combust I have to maybe wait 10-14 sec for FO to be up and can start combust a bit early and still get the full rotation in. That's just me personally.

If you are delaying combustion while using kindling there really is very little reason to be using kindling.

If you are going to fire of same number of Combustions during a fight with and without Kindling, talent is 100% wasted. If you get one more Combustion for a fight it is gain no matter what.

This is obvious - but is also obviously removing yourself from the conditions I ran the sims in, which are fight lengths significantly longer than the dungeon bosses we currently are running so it's normally not a question of +/- 1 combustion use.