Fire Trinket Discussion Megathread

[Curnivore]

The problem is, if you can fit in an extra combustion with kindling, there is no reason to go cinderstorm. Even one extra combustion is enough for Kindling to be better than even perfectly used CiS. AND if you're going kindling (due to being able to fit an extra combustion), you do NOT delay that kindled combustion for Sinew, because even if it doesn't crit out of combustion, you'll lose a lot more by not having that extra combustion.

//edit: I just checked my logs, with a 2.38m usual combustion-crit, my out-of-combustion hits are 1.5-1.7m on all pulls. Didn't find a lower one.

I wouldn't define it that simply. On real fights, if they are structured in a certain way, Kindling can be a problem. For example, on Elerethe I could almost perfectly line up Cinderstorm-version Combustion with the 2nd platform, while Kindling was being more off or awkward. Similarly on Nythendra I could be MC'ed more often together with a Kindling-version Combustion being up. Also you don't know if a fight lasts longer anyway, some DPS characters may die, and that may be common on progression or early farm. I think Kindling is mainly a requirement on certain encounter structures that require frequent nukes (e.g. all 5mans, nuke-phases bosses that would line-up badly), otherwise Cinderstorm appears more convenient for bosses of a more monolithic/progressive/simple succession of events.

[LaplaceNoMa]

I'm not judging things by my opinions, you can check the logs for all bosses by yourself and see that almost no one in the top logs uses cinderstorm and/or delays sinew uses.

[Curnivore]

I'm not judging things by my opinions, you can check the logs for all bosses by yourself and see that almost no one in the top logs uses cinderstorm and/or delays sinew uses.

The 1 guy at the top proves nothing about what we were saying.

[LaplaceNoMa]

I'm not judging things by my opinions, you can check the logs for all bosses by yourself and see that almost no one in the top logs uses cinderstorm and/or delays sinew uses.

The 1 guy at the top proves nothing about what we were saying.

Well... On all bosses, there's like one cinderstorm user for 20 kindling users.

I did find a couple of people using the third option though: using kindling, but delaying sinew for combustion, not the other way around (in other words, they use 2nd combustion at ~1:30, but then the 2nd sinew around the 3rd minute mark)

[Curnivore]

I'm not judging things by my opinions, you can check the logs for all bosses by yourself and see that almost no one in the top logs uses cinderstorm and/or delays sinew uses.

The 1 guy at the top proves nothing about what we were saying.

Well... On all bosses, there's like one cinderstorm user for 20 kindling users.

I did find a couple of people using the third option though: using kindling, but delaying sinew for combustion, not the other way around (in other words, they use 2nd combustion at ~1:30, but then the 2nd sinew around the 3rd minute mark)

20 is a very small sample. If the rest below them are cut off before that extra Kindling it might not happen similarly. It's unclear when you will kill an npc in part because of other players and rng so it can't be predicted to do exactly what they did.

[Falq]

//edit: I just checked my logs, with a 2.38m usual combustion-crit, my out-of-combustion hits are 1.5-1.7m on all pulls. Didn't find a lower one.

I have no idea how you did that.

I did some dummy testing today
Logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/kwvmBNDPV9Qjptq2" target="_blank

Conlusions:
My full buffer crit is around 2.38mln
Depends on PI stacks it very between 1.8-2.38mln
and my RoP non-crit is around 950k dmg.

In my opinion this is huge difference (even with only PI) and should only be fired during full cooldowns. If you are unlucky and not popping trinket at correct time it deal less than half of the damage it should be.

[poorprae]

//edit: I just checked my logs, with a 2.38m usual combustion-crit, my out-of-combustion hits are 1.5-1.7m on all pulls. Didn't find a lower one.

I have no idea how you did that.

I did some dummy testing today
Logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/kwvmBNDPV9Qjptq2" target="_blank

Conlusions:
My full buffer crit is around 2.38mln
Depends on PI stacks it very between 1.8-2.38mln
and my RoP non-crit is around 950k dmg.

In my opinion this is huge difference (even with only PI) and should only be fired during full cooldowns. If you are unlucky and not popping trinket at correct time it deal less than half of the damage it should be.

Is the objective to have all 10 charges transfer on crit hits or just the final transfer (and subsequent trigger) land as a crit?

[Falq]

As far as I know, and I did some variations it's only final blow. But remember it can proc from some passive things (not sure what exactly, Conflag, Ignite, Trinket, Satyr enchant sth like that) but I stood still seen it going down. Also some people reported it does not proc from FB which is not true. It proc from everything just have icd on charge application so you cannot do it faster than expected. One time I managed to apply 9-10 stacks within 10 seconds but It's not reliable combo.

[Mage]

20 is a very small sample.

It is however 20 times larger than the sample of 1 - your personal opinion.
At least he is providing ANY kind of data.

[Curnivore]

20 is a very small sample.

It is however 20 times larger than the sample of 1 - your personal opinion.
At least he is providing ANY kind of data.

That's nonsense. We can have arguments on mechanics, encounters and gameplay. If you have 0 arguments and say "here is the top 20" which is an insignificant sample for the majority of mages you practically say nothing.

[Mage]

Nah, it says way more than your abstract arguments.
If you want to debunk him, link stats that make his invalid, not your personal opinions.
Kindling is played MUCH more often at the top level and that's a fact.

[Curnivore]

link stats [..] not your personal opinions

Your basic error is that you assume the majority of players make the right decisions on talents or know how to play any talent they take perfectly. If most mages take Kindling no matter what, or/and if they don't know how to utilize Cinderstorm properly - and we know a lot of mages have no idea how PI interacts with it exactly - the stats will show it higher in most fights, if not all. It proves nothing on whether they were right.

[incaendius]

What about the new trinket?

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=142160/mrrgrias-favor" target="_blank

[Mage]

Your basic error is that you assume the majority of players make the right decisions on talents or know how to play any talent they take

Your basic error is that you assume you know better than 90% of top parsers.

[Falq]

I can ensure you Curnivore is right.

To be top on logs right now, you have to:

1. Play for logs (scumbag dps where it's not actually needed)
2. Make sure people don't aoe adds when you do because it makes them die faster
3. Be lucky with loot

and when you take that into the count, you top people means nothing. Majority people takes Kindling over CiS because "they don't like spell" or cba to aim with it... And you people look at their logs and talk how good they are. To see what talent is best for which fight you will have to wait few months when everyone will be running in similar/same gear and the only difference will be their talents and people will be adjusting tactics to get top logs for one particular person (that's how it works for top 10 places after some time). I'd really like to see what you actually killed and when rather than linking other peoples logs and trying to analize what happened when they prob don't give a fuck and took Kindling because they care way less than you do.

I'm 100% sure you can't find kindling/CiS answer in logs right now because difference in playstyle/gear/legendaries will be much bigger.

My guild cleared everything world #34 and we never give a single shit about dps in this content. Surviving was much more important. I outdpsed other mage (he had legendary bracers and kindling) on every (or almost every) progress kill. I'm only runing Kindling on Cenarius and Xavius (because on Xavius it's easier to time with Dream, and on Cenarius we pop hero on 2Dryads around 3 min into the fight so I have my Combustion just up). On every other fight I run CiS

[Mage]

Again - logs of top parsers around the world tell a much more interesting story than yours, mine, or whoever else's posts on this forum.

[Unreal]

Authority arguements a lá "top 20 parsers did this" are a fallacy.

Whichever talent is best heavily depends on raid damage (i.e fight length), needed priority damage (and your asigned role) and raid cds (particularly bloodlust). In farm, kindling seems to be favoured for multiple reasons. One would be bloodlust on pull severely increases the value of kindling, another reason would be that the fight length during farm are so short that the gained sustained damage through cinderstorm doesn't outscale the additional burst gained through kindling. Addwaves in EN have a high synergy with kindling, too.

With that being said, I've always performed best by looking at the variables and picking my talent from there. I think blizzard did a good job with cinderstorm and kindling, they have their places. Meteor is simply lacking.

[Wizton]

835 shock baton
860 arcano crystal
850 Horror slime
865 plague hive

Some really bad test on a target dummy have the Shock baton and Arcano Crystal doing the most? any insight would be very helpful, Im looking for best overall trinkets for casual heroic En. Guild may push into some mythics.

[lopstar]

I would have taken Hive over Baton, and then crystal.

[exeed]

835 shock baton
860 arcano crystal
850 Horror slime
865 plague hive

Some really bad test on a target dummy have the Shock baton and Arcano Crystal doing the most? any insight would be very helpful, Im looking for best overall trinkets for casual heroic En. Guild may push into some mythics.

Baton/Crystal for AE

Hive/Crystal Pure Single/Slight Cleave

Slime/Baton Mythic+ Trash
Hive/Crystal Mythic+ Bosses