Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targets
Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targets
I thought of quickly testing the effect of Flamestriking instead of Pyroblasting on multiple targets. For the purpose of this crude test the targets are Patchwerks (i.e. never-dying), when I say "FS" it means FS instead of Pyro at all times apart from Pyro phase and when I say "Full FS" it means FS even during Combustion instead of Pyro. Default means to never FS because that's what the default APL seems to be doing. Other notes: Based on T19H of current 7.1, 300sec, 5k iterations, 20% variance.
In retrospect, I changed the talents to Conflagration, Kindling and Living bomb too because that's what almost everyone is running in 5mans. Pyromaniac, Cinderstorm and Unstable Magic is kinda rare there. They tend to be rare in raiding AOE too lately.
The artifact of 19H was changed to have Aftershocks and Blue Flame Special too since most players will have them.
5 targets 7.0 vs 7.1:
No surprises here. Full FS is significantly worse too.
Default still wins on 7.1. But FS versions go significantly higher.
10 targets:
Full FS is apparently already better on 10 targets on 7.0.
In retrospect, the final test should be on 7 targets, since 10 is already showing the way for higher.
In 7.1 10 targets seems much better than 7.0 on Full FS but also FS has gone above the Default.
On 7 targets:
On 7.0 the order doesn't seem too different on 7 targets than 5 targets
Same order with 10 targets on 7.1 for 7 targets
And adding 7.1-only results for 6 targets:
Head-to-head apparently on 6 targets for 7.1 between Full FS and default.
In retrospect, I changed the talents to Conflagration, Kindling and Living bomb too because that's what almost everyone is running in 5mans. Pyromaniac, Cinderstorm and Unstable Magic is kinda rare there. They tend to be rare in raiding AOE too lately.
The artifact of 19H was changed to have Aftershocks and Blue Flame Special too since most players will have them.
5 targets 7.0 vs 7.1:
No surprises here. Full FS is significantly worse too.
Default still wins on 7.1. But FS versions go significantly higher.
10 targets:
Full FS is apparently already better on 10 targets on 7.0.
In retrospect, the final test should be on 7 targets, since 10 is already showing the way for higher.
In 7.1 10 targets seems much better than 7.0 on Full FS but also FS has gone above the Default.
On 7 targets:
On 7.0 the order doesn't seem too different on 7 targets than 5 targets
Same order with 10 targets on 7.1 for 7 targets
And adding 7.1-only results for 6 targets:
Head-to-head apparently on 6 targets for 7.1 between Full FS and default.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
So basically FS is never on top, we either go full out on aoe or stick to single target. Also If I understand correctly this is 6 min fight with X number of targets up 24/7. So you always get full Ignite value because no1 dies before ignite get to him. If we wan't to kill targets fast (and you usually do) Flamestrike is way better (because it does not spread ignite because it apply same ignite to all targets). Also moving forward I think since Full FS is already superior over FS,and FS does not give you Heating Up! proc I think it would be more efficient to cast Scorch instead of Fireball during combustion and/or normal phases just to get as many Heating Ups as possible
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
How is the combu sequence in Full FS?
Is it : DB->PF->FB->FS->PF->FB->FS->PF->(FO)FB->FS ?
Is it : DB->PF->FB->FS->PF->FB->FS->PF->(FO)FB->FS ?
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
Full FS here is exactly like the default rotation of the 19H profile of Simcraft with the change that it never pyros, it flamestrikes instead of pyroing.
PS. It doesn't even DB at any number of targets, unless one equips the legendary, but it wouldn't change the order, DB remained almost identical.
PS. It doesn't even DB at any number of targets, unless one equips the legendary, but it wouldn't change the order, DB remained almost identical.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
So I will still not use my AP on aftershocks, I guess.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
Maybe I'm totally brain farting here, but I don't understand why FS wouldn't rate higher than Default in the last parse (7.1, 6 targets) if Full FS is higher than Default...
Also what I'm gathering from this is that even with the Pyro nerf and the FS buff, it still pays to Pyroblast
Also what I'm gathering from this is that even with the Pyro nerf and the FS buff, it still pays to Pyroblast
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
I think there actually needs to be a fourth sim option: Reverse FS. Only use Flamestrike during Combustion. That's the only way I can really rationalize it in my head, unless I'm also seriously overlooking something.Maybe I'm totally brain farting here, but I don't understand why FS wouldn't rate higher than Default in the last parse (7.1, 6 targets) if Full FS is higher than Default...
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
can you take into consideration the aftershock?
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
Can you link your simc profile (aka settings and overrides) that you used for some of these tests? I'd love to do some testing of my own. e.g. I want to inspect the sample APL to make sure nothing incorrect is being done.
I was WAY into the PB > FS camp, but even I thought these buffs were enough to make FS > PB at 4+ targets.
I was WAY into the PB > FS camp, but even I thought these buffs were enough to make FS > PB at 4+ targets.
- mad33tcompynrd
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:28 pm
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
I made an account so that I could agree with you. When I saw what the changes were I figured "Oh okay they're addressing fire's wacky single target/AoE situation, maybe I will actually have call to cast flamestrike in the raid." If it's still 6+ for FS then they didn't do their math correctly and this changes nothing- maybe on Ilg I might cast FS but that was the only fight I used it for anyway, this isn't really adding any more FS casts to my raid rotation. I guess it will be nice for M+ though.Can you link your simc profile (aka settings and overrides) that you used for some of these tests? I'd love to do some testing of my own. e.g. I want to inspect the sample APL to make sure nothing incorrect is being done.
I was WAY into the PB > FS camp, but even I thought these buffs were enough to make FS > PB at 4+ targets.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
Even at six targets, fs is only superior to pyro during combustion according to these sims.
Edit: was this simmed with 3x points put into blue flame special and aftershocks? Also, it'd be quite interesting to have a comparison of 3x pyro relics vs 3x flamestrike relics in a 4 to 5 target situation.
Edit: was this simmed with 3x points put into blue flame special and aftershocks? Also, it'd be quite interesting to have a comparison of 3x pyro relics vs 3x flamestrike relics in a 4 to 5 target situation.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
Hi,
IMO the simulation settings are wrong to begin with... 300 secs is not appropriate to use here. FS is use purely on AOE burst, either in M+ dungeons or quick add spawns. Please resim using 20 seconds fight time. I Believe the results will be very different and will reflect the reality of ingame AOE.
IMO the simulation settings are wrong to begin with... 300 secs is not appropriate to use here. FS is use purely on AOE burst, either in M+ dungeons or quick add spawns. Please resim using 20 seconds fight time. I Believe the results will be very different and will reflect the reality of ingame AOE.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
^ +1
PEOPLE ARE FORGETTING THAT A TRASH MOB PULL USUALLY DIES IN LESS THAN 30 SECONDS.
Check the below logs; each pull lasted no more than 20-30 seconds.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=18" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=19" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=20" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=22" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=23" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=24" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=25" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=26" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=27" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=29" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
Notice how I did not use combustion on any of these fights.
Also note the time stamp of each pull... Tank was pulling a pack as soon as the current one died; no resting in between for CD's to charge up. I consistently got 2-3 flamestrikes EVERY trash pull as demonstrated with the above logs, due to PF artifact reduction as well as a short Fire Blast cooldown.
Each pull was 2-4 mobs as shown in the logs.
This is before the Flamepatch buff. --- derped, Flamestrike buff I mean
I outdps Warlocks with 860+ gear with the above rotation in trash AOE and I'm 100% sure sure I'll out dps them easily with the buff tonight.
PEOPLE ARE FORGETTING THAT A TRASH MOB PULL USUALLY DIES IN LESS THAN 30 SECONDS.
Check the below logs; each pull lasted no more than 20-30 seconds.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=18" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=19" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=20" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=22" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=23" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=24" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=25" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=26" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=27" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... /#fight=29" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wk ... &source=12" target="_blank
Notice how I did not use combustion on any of these fights.
Also note the time stamp of each pull... Tank was pulling a pack as soon as the current one died; no resting in between for CD's to charge up. I consistently got 2-3 flamestrikes EVERY trash pull as demonstrated with the above logs, due to PF artifact reduction as well as a short Fire Blast cooldown.
Each pull was 2-4 mobs as shown in the logs.
This is before the Flamepatch buff. --- derped, Flamestrike buff I mean
I outdps Warlocks with 860+ gear with the above rotation in trash AOE and I'm 100% sure sure I'll out dps them easily with the buff tonight.
Last edited by Sosaria on Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
You keep mentioning the Flamepatch buff. What is this?
This is before the Flamepatch buff.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
^ i derped... Flamestrike buff is what I meant.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
I see you pull ahead both with pyro and FS. Doesn't really convincing to join the FS camp. And to outdps a warlock... it's a joke except the 2-target scenario. Would be interesting to compare it to flamepatch-fs.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
Blue Flame Special had 3/3 on those tests. I heard on discord that Aftershocks was bugged on multiple targets on Simcraft and it only hit once and if that's true it should make the use of Flamestrike stronger.
I know that 5mans trash or trash in general or adds die fast but these tests aren't for setting a strict rotation but mainly for comparing extremes, and it might be unreliable simulating extremely short fights.
Alternatively, you could setup periodically spawning adds that die very soon, there is a command line for APLs that does that.
I know that 5mans trash or trash in general or adds die fast but these tests aren't for setting a strict rotation but mainly for comparing extremes, and it might be unreliable simulating extremely short fights.
Alternatively, you could setup periodically spawning adds that die very soon, there is a command line for APLs that does that.
- whisperingsage
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:39 am
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
Yeah, considering the reasoning for pyro over ignite was to let ignite spread and tick for its full duration, and flamestrike was better for burst aoe, an undying pack all living for a full 300 seconds is giving way too much benefit towards pyro. Not to mention there isn't a single trash pack that lives longer than about a minute, and that's either with raging or not interrupting mistcallers in Maw.
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
You really should run this at 15 - 30 seconds.
This is purely for trash / mob encounters. I very much doubt there is a fight with 5 mobs up for 5 minutes.
If it isn't too much trouble, could you also check 4 targets for trash?
This is purely for trash / mob encounters. I very much doubt there is a fight with 5 mobs up for 5 minutes.
If it isn't too much trouble, could you also check 4 targets for trash?
Re: Flamestriking comparisons between 7.1,7.0 on 5,7,10 targ
You can't really run sims for short durations like that. At those time ranges, formulation seems like a better approach to analyze the comparison.
Another option is to adjust the value of the two based on Ignite damage. Pyroblast has no AoE value outside of the spreaded Ignite, so you can just remove that part of the damage contribution and manually estimate how much it should do instead.
Another option is to adjust the value of the two based on Ignite damage. Pyroblast has no AoE value outside of the spreaded Ignite, so you can just remove that part of the damage contribution and manually estimate how much it should do instead.
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