Regarding fire's single-target DPS after 7.1.5

[Solarian78]

If you hold your meteor a couple seconds into combustion you will get the auto meteor crit WITH 5 stacks of pyretic incantion. Def worth holding imo.

I just save a fireblast charge to use while I am using a gcd on meteor so I'm not losing out any practically any time.

Better check your math there. You're still losing a GCD. Don't think that extra Meteor damage is worth the GCD.

Why? If you cast meteor while you are heating up and use a fireblast during the gcd you'll be ready to use another hot streak as soon as the gcd finishes. You don't think that's worth 5 stacks of pyretic adding into your meteor damage?

My source https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/c ... 301/latest" target="_blank

[Rabona]

If you hold your meteor a couple seconds into combustion you will get the auto meteor crit WITH 5 stacks of pyretic incantion. Def worth holding imo.

I just save a fireblast charge to use while I am using a gcd on meteor so I'm not losing out any practically any time.

Better check your math there. You're still losing a GCD. Don't think that extra Meteor damage is worth the GCD.

Why? If you cast meteor while you are heating up and use a fireblast during the gcd you'll be ready to use another hot streak as soon as the gcd finishes. You don't think that's worth 5 stacks of pyretic adding into your meteor damage?

My source https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/c ... 301/latest" target="_blank

Sorry, but what that's supposed to prove? It's a single HC parse with purple rankings. Lacking both in quantity and quality to have any meaning. If you want to make these kind of claims then you need math or sims to back it up.

[sauce]

Why? If you cast meteor while you are heating up and use a fireblast during the gcd you'll be ready to use another hot streak as soon as the gcd finishes. You don't think that's worth 5 stacks of pyretic adding into your meteor damage?

My source https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/c ... 301/latest" target="_blank

You're almost guaranteed another Pyro during Combustion if you use Meteor beforehand, which is definitely more damage. You're also missing out on the guaranteed crits of Meteor's ticking portion if you have Meteor land at the tail end of Combustion.

Losing 8% damage on your Meteor vs another Pyroblast during combustion isn't even a close comparison. Going by your logs, you'd lose about 140k damage on your Meteor during combustion if you were to instead cast it beforehand. Another pyro would be 540k (your lowest pyro crit), which would give you another at least 140k from ignite.

[Solarian78]

Why? If you cast meteor while you are heating up and use a fireblast during the gcd you'll be ready to use another hot streak as soon as the gcd finishes. You don't think that's worth 5 stacks of pyretic adding into your meteor damage?

My source https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/c ... 301/latest" target="_blank

You're almost guaranteed another Pyro during Combustion if you use Meteor beforehand, which is definitely more damage. You're also missing out on the guaranteed crits of Meteor's ticking portion if you have Meteor land at the tail end of Combustion.

Losing 8% damage on your Meteor vs another Pyroblast during combustion isn't even a close comparison. Going by your logs, you'd lose about 140k damage on your Meteor during combustion if you were to instead cast it beforehand. Another pyro would be 540k (your lowest pyro crit), which would give you another at least 140k from ignite.

Hm, hadn't thought of it that way. Will have to give it a try.

[tailes]

im playing almost same build like in 7.1
Just with Meteor, so RoP + Meteor, still Sinew and Helya Trinket with Crit 880.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dM ... amage-done" target="_blank

SimC tells me that RoP is simmed higher than MI on my character, even if i take Infernal Writ instead of Sinew to sim MI, still gets outdealed by RoP, lul?
But yea as you can see in that Krosus Log, you are still competitive on ST, even with Rune.

Edit: Regarding the kill speed, 10 Seconds to Combustion + Sinew etc. was left, so there was potentially much more damage.

- No offence but saying you are "competitive on ST" with your 590k dps only applies to your raid. On a 3 minute fight pure ST our raid does on average 600k which put your dps in the middle or bottom. Also, you have bracers AND ring AND a good trinket AND 54 trait and got insane lucky with 80% pyro crit rate.

If the stars all lineup you are competitive but if not - you have to scroll to see you on the meter

[Aggrokalle]

first of all - i´m pretty lucky having the bracers, ring, belt and head. and tldr - my st dps is fine. on star argus, i´m middle to bottom, but on the other ST bosses (trilliax / krosus) i was top 3-5 of our guild and we´re pretty good ones (hc clear, server first + second Guldan hc kills ).
We don´t need to speak of AOE fights and on cleave fights we´re ok too. All in all we´re not the topdogs like rets, but its ok. Plus - with the right proccs and some critluck, we still can come far. And we still have a really nice gameplay.

yes, we´re legendary and trinketdependant, but you dont need bracers / belt at all for ST. Check the Vids of DyLemma on youtube. He plays head+ring all the way and pulls really great numbers.

[tailes]

but on the other ST bosses (trilliax / krosus) i was top 3-5 of our guild and we´re pretty good ones

By all means, since when is trillax a ST fight?
Sure the effective DPS is ST but you passive pad on the robots and DB will do insane dmg if you use it with your head.

yes, we´re legendary and trinketdependant, but you dont need bracers / belt at all for ST. Check the Vids of DyLemma on youtube. He plays head+ring all the way and pulls really great numbers.

I cant find him on any ST fight beside Guam and his DPS is OK on that fight. All other fights from him benefits from his helm. Also the ring helps him a lot especially with 2pc bonus where haste gets more value as crit.

If you look at the logs for ST fight Krosus the first fire mage is around 120k below the first other DPS.
Sure, not everyone makes the log public but this says a lot.

[Aggrokalle]

I had 540k dps on trilliax, 156mio dmg total (9,36mio on robots). Thats pretty much in line with our enhancer, DH and ele in terms of robot dmg. The shadowpriest had >30mio on robots. Only classes with more bossdmg where our ret(2p), assa-rogue(4p and 880+ statsticks) and balance druid (2p+880+ statsticks), where i had no tierpiece and 2x 845 statsticks.

[Rabona]

We also have to factor in that (at least according to the sims I've seen) our setboni are pretty weak, which probably means that we will fall behind even (a bit) further over the next few weeks.

Tbh what worries me most is that they said Arcane DPS is supposedly fine when the spec is performing pretty much on Fire's level overall and on ST even better.

Further concern to me (as I don't have it) is that I'm pretty sure fire only ranks as high as it does (and that being 6th worst spec over all encounters) because Drackli's is completely insane (at least for padding) on a lot of fights in NH.

[Falq]

We also have to factor in that (at least according to the sims I've seen) our setboni are pretty weak, which probably means that we will fall behind even (a bit) further over the next few weeks.

Also trinkets are not the best either, so it will be even worse.

[Saróx]

I'm a bit suprised that this discussion is still a topic? Legions purpose stated at blizzcon, and being one of their big goals with legion, was to diversify classes, giving them their own sense of purpose in raids. Fires purpose and meaning is heavy AOE dmg, which it most cirtainly brings to the table in a satisfying way. Frost had the perpose of being a good at handeling Cleave and CC, which is must say it does very well aswell, they even made them capable of doing AOE here in 7.1.5
Arcane is the ST build with high burst, and conserving playstyle, whether they achieved that or not, im not so sure, since i find them better on AOE, and still lack luster on ST, but point being that all in all the classes lives up to the fantasy.

Calling fire a bad ST dps, is perhaps true but also a bit of a stretch imo, cus if you have the gear for it (not talking legendaries since i only have AOE orientated once) it's still viable, and with NH being limited to very few 100% ST fights without some phases of AOE/Add cleave/killing i think that fire fits very well. In our guild we cleared both normal and hc, got to see the awesome gul'dan cinematic and looted his gear. I've not been fortunate enough to get anything than a few relic upgrades bringing me up to ilvl 885, and still i've been able to stay relevant on pretty much every fight we did in there. I've accepted my fate as not being the top ST dps, which really dossent bother me looking at our 3 asassin rogues pulling 700-800 ST dps, when i can circle jerk everybody on AOE.
I'm Confident tho that when i get my 4pc bonus, and my gul'dan trinket, that dps will be alot more on ST fights but till then, i really dont mind being seated in the middle of the pack.

After all the most important thing is to kill the boss, dont fuck up on tactics and get ranked, which all is pretty achieveable. So learn the fights during the first weeks, and once you get seated on the right gear, then explode from behind and show them what propper dps looks like, and why they shouldent just fear us on AOE but also the ST we will be able to pull.

[Aggrokalle]

Further concern to me (as I don't have it) is that I'm pretty sure fire only ranks as high as it does (and that being 6th worst spec over all encounters) because Drackli's is completely insane (at least for padding) on a lot of fights in NH.

dont see your problem here.
the only fights where padding is a thing is skorpiron, and this guy is freeloot as first boss anyways.
in every other encounter where you might see such great results with the db-legy, are fights where these adds need to die asap. therefore i think fire is superb for progression.
take a look at gul^dan - the eyes wreak havoc in your raid. An we can nuke them so nicely. LB when he casts the eyes, RoP, DB, Cinderstorm -> gg.
Krosus mythic will be a matter of burst AoE too. Being good at burst AoE is not bad at all, just because we arent topdogs on ST. And its not like we´re on tank-dps lvl ST. We´re just below average. But if not we, somebody else will be. And if you look at the gaps between the 4th and the 4th least specc, the imbalance gap is pretty close. overall i just think for now, fire is in a good spot. Fun to play - good survivability - good mobility - superb burst aoe - ok ST - good cleave.

[Rabona]

Further concern to me (as I don't have it) is that I'm pretty sure fire only ranks as high as it does (and that being 6th worst spec over all encounters) because Drackli's is completely insane (at least for padding) on a lot of fights in NH.

dont see your problem here.
the only fights where padding is a thing is skorpiron, and this guy is freeloot as first boss anyways.
in every other encounter where you might see such great results with the db-legy, are fights where these adds need to die asap. therefore i think fire is superb for progression.
take a look at gul^dan - the eyes wreak havoc in your raid. An we can nuke them so nicely. LB when he casts the eyes, RoP, DB, Cinderstorm -> gg.
Krosus mythic will be a matter of burst AoE too. Being good at burst AoE is not bad at all, just because we arent topdogs on ST. And its not like we´re on tank-dps lvl ST. We´re just below average. But if not we, somebody else will be. And if you look at the gaps between the 4th and the 4th least specc, the imbalance gap is pretty close. overall i just think for now, fire is in a good spot. Fun to play - good survivability - good mobility - superb burst aoe - ok ST - good cleave.

My concern is that we need a certain Legendary to be truly great at the one thing we're not mediocre or outright below par in and on the other hand they actively tried to make other specs more rounded (Balance Druids and Shadows say hello), so I don't see why we should have to compensate with one of the weakest ST performances in the current meta for having a quite specific niche that might not even be that clear if we diddn't get lucky in the legendary lottery. You also have to wonder how much of that niche is going to be left once mythic raises HP pools, since other specs quickly catch up if adds live longer than a few seconds.

[Syana]

What I found out is that Meteor is NOT guaranteed to crit.

Theoretically, Metoer has a 3 sec delay. While Metoer is somewhere in the air (within 3 sec time frame), combustion should make give you 100% crit. But this is not happening.

I have gotten may times my Meteor doesn't crit after I cast Meteor, < 2sec later I Combust.

Is anyone having the same situation?

Full Raid Buff I have 48% crit 21% haste.

This, as far as I have been able to work out, is because of two things.
1. Meteor snapshots its damage 1-1.5 seconds before actually hitting the ground.
2. Meteor IS affected by haste. Meaning it will hit the ground faster than the tooltip states.

Doing MI > Meteor > Wait for GCD > Combustion, has never failed me on critting meteor and wastes no combustion time on GCd

[tailes]

take a look at gul^dan - the eyes wreak havoc in your raid. An we can nuke them so nicely. LB when he casts the eyes, RoP, DB, Cinderstorm -> gg.

Maybe it just me but on all heroic pulls of Guldan on the eye's I could not keep up with starfall even with DB legendary timed on rune plus cinderstorm and LB pre cast so it explodes when the spawn. We had 3 moonkin and the highest did 12.5% while I am at 8.8% overall. Also his ST sims over 700k way higher than me - I would not be surprised to see moonkin over fire mages for a lot of mythic progress starting soon.

So yeah, we do good AOE but our ramp up ST is weak and there are only a few fights were I see a fire mage would be better used as a moonkin. If you look at raid benefits, moonkin are on a same level as mage if not even slightly better for a raid comb.

Interesting to see what the top 10 are choosing for lineup but I know already from 3 that they max use 1 fire mage on most of the bosses.

[Aggrokalle]

thats right, moonkins are pretty broken atm, prolly the strongest caster.
but thats it - they´re broken. other times, firemages were way above moonkins. times change.

[Falq]

We are getting off top here but will try to help you out a bit.

With your LB -> RoP eyes rotation there is one small problem you forget about. You are fire mage, you are suppose to ignite things. Unfortunatelly my logs are private but Ill post screenshot from Gul'dan kill my guild did

>>Link<<

I got both legendary bracers and head but...

I precast RoP early every time, burst for eyes ends with my DB inside RoP, so moment eyes spawns I got huge ignite on Gul'dan spreading to them, I CiS, FS inside RoP and finish with DB for huge burst. Also saved ExtraActionButton for each wave and boomkins didn't come anywhere near me

[Imaskar]

Someone simmed it here, chech the pinned thread. They said it is not that bad, almost equal.

EDIT: This is an answer to "precast meteor befor combustion or use it inside"

[Mage]

Guys, don't draw conclusions based on you outplaying most of your team mates.
The stats are cold and unbiased: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... dataset=90" target="_blank

We are getting buffed, which is expected for a class with all 3 specs being at rock bottom, so let's wait and see if we can climb to the middle of the pack come tomorrow.

[tailes]

With your LB -> RoP eyes rotation there is one small problem you forget about. You are fire mage, you are suppose to ignite things.

It was a rough rotation not the exact in deep one.
Also my breakdown looks similar to yours with DB ahead followed by a huge ignite.

But in our raid comb we had a AOE legendary hunter, 3 moonkins an ele and ret pala.
That is a lot of burst on the eye so the picture for me would be different if less ppl wold cleave on them.
No matter what mage is in the top of AOE and bottom of ST.