T19 2Set, when to switch

[Mortos]

Hi
first of all, I know your answer will be Sims yourself
and I have and the answer at the moment is 'Do not lose the 2Set"
but my question is for the future and in general terms

how much 'ilvl' is the 2Set worth
I mean when am I expecting to switch from 4T20+2T19 to 4T20+random gear

at the moment 2 pieces of 25ilvl better still sim Worse then 2Set

anyone knows when this will stop being true?

[CaliFireMage]

For my character, +20 ilvls.

At 905 T19 vs. 925 random, difference was small but in favor of the random tier gear. This is for fire only, I think my frost still sims higher using low T19 2pc set.

[gallamann]

Attempt to put what my mind rambles on about this;

By dropping T19 2pc you drop Enhanced Pyrotechnics to 10% from 30%. At 40% crit, you are going to see streaks of 6-7 non crit fireballs versus current 3. Going to be some painful periods after a combustion burn where your damage drops into the toilet.

When you look at 100K iterations from a Sim, you see an average. Whereas your next 12 weeks of one shot kills of <boss> all have you casting 6 to 7 fireballs after every combustion phase. Will anyone seriously use 2 charges of Fire Blast, Phoenix Flame or one of each to generate a HS?

Every time I think about this, just keep circling back to no crits, no HU's, no push into HS, no chance for bracer to proc.

Personally I think EP should be changed to ensure 3 non crit fireballs is most you need to cast to generate a crit fireball. Lack of generating crits is what kills our sustain DPS.

[broedrost]

Attempt to put what my mind rambles on about this;

By dropping T19 2pc you drop Enhanced Pyrotechnics to 10% from 30%. At 40% crit, you are going to see streaks of 6-7 non crit fireballs versus current 3. Going to be some painful periods after a combustion burn where your damage drops into the toilet.

When you look at 100K iterations from a Sim, you see an average. Whereas your next 12 weeks of one shot kills of <boss> all have you casting 6 to 7 fireballs after every combustion phase. Will anyone seriously use 2 charges of Fire Blast, Phoenix Flame or one of each to generate a HS?

Every time I think about this, just keep circling back to no crits, no HU's, no push into HS, no chance for bracer to proc.

Personally I think EP should be changed to ensure 3 non crit fireballs is most you need to cast to generate a crit fireball. Lack of generating crits is what kills our sustain DPS.

Which is why fire mages used to stack crit, blizzard just fucked up alot on their end imo

[Syana]

They should have nerfed T19 down to 10% again and buffed the base ability to 20% when they went through the NH sets and nerfed them in preparation for Tomb. Going down to 10% from 30% is gonna feel awful once it happens...

[Xinder]

I keep thinking to myself "maybe i'll get fire legos and swap back to fire come later into T20 or T21 maybe". Then I read it's still in an awkward and shitty place and wonder why I bother with those thoughts. I am geared for frost and started as fire in legion. Never got one of the good fire legos that let you parse above average(cough bracers cough).

[gallamann]

I keep thinking to myself "maybe i'll get fire legos and swap back to fire come later into T20 or T21 maybe". Then I read it's still in an awkward and shitty place and wonder why I bother with those thoughts. I am geared for frost and started as fire in legion. Never got one of the good fire legos that let you parse above average(cough bracers cough).

Heh, I will let you in on a dirty little secret...

Those bracers can never proc, sure when they proc a couple times during combust it helps your DPS. However most the time they are just an annoyance from either lack of procs or from proc'ing at completely useless times. Fire's big problem is your DPS goes to shit during non-combust windows, so over the fight you slowly slide down the DPS meter.

If I had to pick which Legendary is mandatory for fire, it would be the belt.

Hell I am still leaning towards going back to using Helm/Belt for fire, simply because you eliminate bracer RNG.

[Purplefrost]

I don't think it's that good. for me personally, i swapped my 890 T19 for 900 T20 and saw a DPS increase. all my other non tier were already 915+ so my guess is you're looking at 25 iLvl to be able to drop the set bonus. T19 isnt as strong for fire as it is for TV frost so you should be able to outgear it. I didnt have leggo belt when i made the change to my gear either, only leggo bracers. I have only 1 or two times where i cast 6 fireballs before a crit. it's usually 2-3 max even with only 44% crit

[pyrotonic]

Straight up, my 890 T19 4p+915 T20 2p is beating my 915 T20 4p+890 T19 2p. Thats 25 ilvls. Wtf is going on. I have bracrer and belt. Im stunned that "ask mr Robot" is ignoring this 915 T20 4p bonus entirely and keeps putting my 890 T19 set as "best in bag". What a mess...

[Xinder]

Straight up, my 890 T19 4p+915 T20 2p is beating my 915 T20 4p+890 T19 2p. Thats 25 ilvls. Wtf is going on. I have bracrer and belt. Im stunned that "ask mr Robot" is ignoring this 915 T20 4p bonus entirely and keeps putting my 890 T19 set as "best in bag". What a mess...

Try Raidbots.com instead. It uses simcraft but does it in a more easy to use format. You just need to have the simcraft addon in game to get your character info, or you can get it from the armory. Simcraft will always be better than AMR imo

[pyrotonic]

Straight up, my 890 T19 4p+915 T20 2p is beating my 915 T20 4p+890 T19 2p. Thats 25 ilvls. Wtf is going on. I have bracrer and belt. Im stunned that "ask mr Robot" is ignoring this 915 T20 4p bonus entirely and keeps putting my 890 T19 set as "best in bag". What a mess...

Try Raidbots.com instead. It uses simcraft but does it in a more easy to use format. You just need to have the simcraft addon in game to get your character info, or you can get it from the armory. Simcraft will always be better than AMR imo

I just did. I gave me the exact same setup. Seriously this 915 T20 gear us so bad that 890 T19 gear is beating it. Anyone else seeing this in their sims?

[Frantik]

yes i see the same...the set bonus of T19 is valued really high because of the crit it gives ..it makes the sim dont care about crit by just telling you to equip the 2 set and then you focus on other stats

[pyrotonic]

yes i see the same...the set bonus of T19 is valued really high because of the crit it gives ..it makes the sim dont care about crit by just telling you to equip the 2 set and then you focus on other stats

Its not just the 2 piece t19 set bonus. When comparing 4 piece set bonuses the sim still chooses the 890ilvl t19 even though its 25 ivls behind. I even tried 2 t19 + 4 T20. I get the crit and both T20 bonus. It still didnt beat the 890ilvl t19 4 piece. I feel kinda bad taking that gear from my guildies. I never expected it to be a downgrade at heroic 915ilvl. So messed up.

[Cinderquill]

yes i see the same...the set bonus of T19 is valued really high because of the crit it gives ..it makes the sim dont care about crit by just telling you to equip the 2 set and then you focus on other stats

Have you tried switching to crit gear? T20 likes and needs crit to work a hell of a lot more than T19 does. My T20 at slightly higher ilvl out did my T19 gear once i put crit gear on.

[pyrotonic]

yes i see the same...the set bonus of T19 is valued really high because of the crit it gives ..it makes the sim dont care about crit by just telling you to equip the 2 set and then you focus on other stats

Have you tried switching to crit gear? T20 likes and needs crit to work a hell of a lot more than T19 does. My T20 at slightly higher ilvl out did my T19 gear once i put crit gear on.

Ask Mr Robot sims all combinations of all gear in my bags and my bank and void storage. I can get up to 66% unbuffed crit if I stack my highest crit gear. That only drops slightly (63%ish) when I add the two non-crit T20 items needed to get the 4 piece set bonus. Even with this massive amount of crit the I see lower performance in game and the sim confirms this as well.

If you are seeing a dps gain by stacking crit with the T20, then you either have much more than my 63% crit or you were not stacking enough haste to take full advantage of the T19 4p bonus. 19% haste or higher makes the T19 set sky rocket in value.

[CaliFireMage]

I wonder if this is some bug in AMR, because when with a combination of simcraft, raidbots, and a scan of wowlogs not a single tier 1 top fire mage I can find (audited like 25 guys so 25/25) is using the T19 anymore (tier 1 being say well over 1.1m simdps).

Not sure if this a talent issue either as for ST, it is clear Firestarter is a must have and if you have Owl+Whispers/Terror then RoP should also sim very high.

I would look at actual player data rather than AMR to be honest. I love it, but is buggy as heck. Raidbots>>>AMR.

[pyrotonic]

I wonder if this is some bug in AMR, because when with a combination of simcraft, raidbots, and a scan of wowlogs not a single tier 1 top fire mage I can find (audited like 25 guys so 25/25) is using the T19 anymore (tier 1 being say well over 1.1m simdps).

Not sure if this a talent issue either as for ST, it is clear Firestarter is a must have and if you have Owl+Whispers/Terror then RoP should also sim very high.

I would look at actual player data rather than AMR to be honest. I love it, but is buggy as heck. Raidbots>>>AMR.

Raidbots gave the same gear setup as AMR. Favoring the t19. Perhaps those mages you refer to have much higher ilvl than my 915 T20? Perhaps there is an ivl threshold in which the T20 begins to out pace T19?

I dont use fire starter for any fight cept KJ. Ill try putting fire starting on and have raid bots and AMR search my bags for best gear, but I doubt that one talent is gonna cause those tools to switch their favor towards the T20.

[Cinderquill]

Have you tried switching to crit gear? T20 likes and needs crit to work a hell of a lot more than T19 does. My T20 at slightly higher ilvl out did my T19 gear once i put crit gear on.

Ask Mr Robot sims all combinations of all gear in my bags and my bank and void storage. I can get up to 66% unbuffed crit if I stack my highest crit gear. That only drops slightly (63%ish) when I add the two non-crit T20 items needed to get the 4 piece set bonus. Even with this massive amount of crit the I see lower performance in game and the sim confirms this as well.

If you are seeing a dps gain by stacking crit with the T20, then you either have much more than my 63% crit or you were not stacking enough haste to take full advantage of the T19 4p bonus. 19% haste or higher makes the T19 set sky rocket in value.

With my T19 gear I had 30% haste and 34% crit and with my T20 gear I have 59% crit and 20% haste and it out does it. So its not that I didn't have enough haste

[pyrotonic]

Have you tried switching to crit gear? T20 likes and needs crit to work a hell of a lot more than T19 does. My T20 at slightly higher ilvl out did my T19 gear once i put crit gear on.

Ask Mr Robot sims all combinations of all gear in my bags and my bank and void storage. I can get up to 66% unbuffed crit if I stack my highest crit gear. That only drops slightly (63%ish) when I add the two non-crit T20 items needed to get the 4 piece set bonus. Even with this massive amount of crit the I see lower performance in game and the sim confirms this as well.

If you are seeing a dps gain by stacking crit with the T20, then you either have much more than my 63% crit or you were not stacking enough haste to take full advantage of the T19 4p bonus. 19% haste or higher makes the T19 set sky rocket in value.

With my T19 gear I had 30% haste and 34% crit and with my T20 gear I have 59% crit and 20% haste and it out does it. So its not that I didn't have enough haste

Did you runs sims for both these sets? or are you basing this on personal assessment? Im a little skeptical because AMR and Raidbot keep favoring the 890 t19 over the 915 T20 even though I have the gear to match your 59%crit/20%haste target.

You are right. You had more than enough haste. Too much at the expense of crit probably. No offense, but I propose you were geared entirely wrong for t19. 34% crit was a straight dps loss. T19 does nothing preserve the massive amounts of dps you lost from low pyroblast crit counts. Its the only reason why you would be doing better with the T20. Unless your T20 is mythic level. I simed my T20 at 915. The sims can be off sometimes but they are never dead wrong.

[Cinderquill]

Ask Mr Robot sims all combinations of all gear in my bags and my bank and void storage. I can get up to 66% unbuffed crit if I stack my highest crit gear. That only drops slightly (63%ish) when I add the two non-crit T20 items needed to get the 4 piece set bonus. Even with this massive amount of crit the I see lower performance in game and the sim confirms this as well.

If you are seeing a dps gain by stacking crit with the T20, then you either have much more than my 63% crit or you were not stacking enough haste to take full advantage of the T19 4p bonus. 19% haste or higher makes the T19 set sky rocket in value.

With my T19 gear I had 30% haste and 34% crit and with my T20 gear I have 59% crit and 20% haste and it out does it. So its not that I didn't have enough haste

Did you runs sims for both these sets? or are you basing this on personal assessment? Im a little skeptical because AMR and Raidbot keep favoring the 890 t19 over the 915 T20 even though I have the gear to match your 59%crit/20%haste target.

You are right. You had more than enough haste. Too much at the expense of crit probably. No offense, but I propose you were geared entirely wrong for t19. 34% crit was a straight dps loss. T19 does nothing preserve the massive amounts of dps you lost from low pyroblast crit counts. Its the only reason why you would be doing better with the T20. Unless your T20 is mythic level. I simed my T20 at 915. The sims can be off sometimes but they are never dead wrong.

Yes, I ran sims for those and actually the 34% crit was my highest simming for T19. You have to remember our best stats were haste and verse in nighthold for single target. I can't remember how much verse I had but it was above 12% though. I had ways to reach more crit back then and the sims still said drop it. Also I take ring on most bosses because it sims slightly higher atm so that could be another reason if you're taking belt since belt likes haste and not so much crit.