your opinion on the fire spec

[Herpie]

Hey fellow fire mages,

I was wondering about your opinions to the changes of the fire mages and the current spells/rotation/talents.
I myself only recently started playing again and missed Legion entirely, and am now exploring the BFA prepatch.

I think i can pretty confidently speak for many mages that we love the hotstreak - instant pyro mechanic ever since it was introduced, and i appreciate Blizzards effort to keep building the fire spec aroun that mechanism. But i was also a huge fan of Combustion when they changed that into a DoT that would snapshot other DoTs and double their damage.
Naturally i was a bit dissapointed to see that that was removed in legion, and not returning in BFA, but all is good... i would give it a try, and i think i can actually learn to like it the way it is now.

What i don/t really like though is the talent tiers. some of them seem to be pretty poorly designed, presenting no real choice.
i will comment on the current tiers:

15 - This one isnt to bad, Firestarter is a passive, but changes your opening sequence and is therefore a talent that rewards skill. Same for searing touch, except this talent does it later in the fights. if they balance them right, both should earn a good spot in the usable talents when BFA raiding is live. Pyromanciac seems to be the low-skill passive alternative in this tier. but for tier 1 to be perfect i would have chosen to include a talent that would be fun and interesting to use in situations where the other 2 are of limited use.

30 - This one seems poorly designed imho. Shimmer is very good... so good that the others can't compare. Blastwave could have its spot here if it were a very hardhitting AoE skill, but instead seems to be picked for its CC-capabilities... and as such it can't compete with shimmer. blazing soul i havent really played with yet, but it sounds un-interesting. alternatives like the old icy-floes (even if only one charge) and blazing speed would have been a cooler and thougher pick for me.

45 - this one doesnt have to be bad either. Incanters flow is the low-skill pick (although you do get to min-max with it if you time heavy casts correctly). Rune of power could be the the active alternative if it rewards skill enough to out-dps IF by enough. Mirror images are a good pick for soloing old (but challenging content). The only thing i would have wished for is that mirror images were part of our base spells... they are cool, but probably will never be picked for raids... i would be okee with dmage being further reduced and mainly useful as a defensive CD/minor DPS cooldown (which is welcome because fire doesnt have many imho). that would also free up a spot for a new tier talent that would reward skillfull play in a different way than RoP (many mages don;t like RoP, correct?)

60 - I don't like the choices here. Flame on is awesome, and feels mandatory in most situations (except when AoE dmg is more important, but even than... if mastery scaling later on in the expansion gets high enough it might still be a viable pick). Having a talent that rewards the use of dragon breath is awesome, but it seems to reward it too little. making DB viable in a single target fight would be awesome (so you could get it as an alternative in fights where you can safely be in melee distance. Phoenix flames might be fun (i havent played legion, so i don't really know). but Flame on is just too good... i would definatly miss it when picking someting else. i would remove flame on, or make it part of the base skills, and replace it with something that buffs fireblast in another way (something that you could do without when you want something for AoE).

75 - frenetic speed is pretty cool, especially when paired with searing touch. I never liked ring of frost (seems to be useless outside of world pvp and Bg's?) and having iceward could be nice when you want to solo stuff and could do with an extra snare while kiting, but overall frenetic speed seems like the beter pick here. i would like to see Ring of frost removed because of boring and hardly ever usefull, and iceward buffed or changed to better compete with frenetic speed.

90 - this tier isnt to bad. the choice between flamepatch and LB is an interesting one imho. conflagration is boring, but at least it provides something that is usefull when there is no AoE to be done.

100 - another one i always hated since it was introduced... kindling...another boring passive that only messes with synchronisation of CD's. pyroclasm was new for me, but i find it pretty awesome! introducing a reason to hardcast pyroblast (and introducing a very risky cast which greatly motivates me to perfect shimmer usage XD), i would keep this. Meteor is also very cool, I only hope that they will be balanced well enough so there will be a reason to pick either of them in certain situations. I would remove kindling or balance it so it will remain a lowskill alternative for people who dont wanna learn pyroclasm or meteor, but i would remove it alltogether and replace it with a 100% AoE talent, and blance it with the other skills so that pyroclasm is the best for single target, meteor for cleave (or just keep it balanced to adds something to both AoE and ST) and the 3rd skill for heavy AoE fights.

in my ideal world:
1) passive talents (EDIT: passives that don't require attention or action to work) would never be you best pick when there are active alternatives but purely aimed at new mage-players or lazy mages
2) active skills should be picked based on AoE versus Single target versus Utility, not best vs worst.
3) talents which give you acces to new spells (like phoenix flames and Blastwave) should be pickable based on "being an awesome spell' and just giving a different way to play based on preference, or AoE versus single target. having two cool spells like the beforementioned ones and not being able to play them because of losing important utility or DPS is not a cool choice imho.

cool things about fire: hot-streak and instant pyro's, pyroclasm vs meteor, many talnets and traits that make scorch worth using.
Not so cool: some cool spells will hardly ever be used because of poor talent design (mirror image, blastwave, phoenix flames).

PS: Am i the only mage who actually liked fire-orb in Cata?

im still pondering on the question if i like legion/BFA combustion



just curious what you guys are thinking about all this.

[Cinderquill]

I had a feeling this would just turn into you expressing your dislike for passive talents and wanting them to be more "casual" and less "optimal". Also, you talk about loving the hot streak playstyle but you don't seem to understand that that playstyle is strongest and most fun when its all about building your crit streaks. Unless you want all the actives in the talents to contribute to hot streak, they will never be optimal due to gcds and effectively wasting time that could be used casting fireball, leading to more crits and pyros. I'm done for more buttons to press as a mage, but having the active talents be those additional buttons but not contributing to the playstyle, other than just raw damage, is just boring and would probably feel bad to play when the goal of the spec is to crit chain into pyros. Also, I wouldn't consider pyroclasm or meteor higher skill than kindling. Pyroclasm and meteor are literally just press me when I'm up, but save meteor if cds are close so long as you avoid wasting a potential cast. Lastly, I'm not sure if you've played with any of the level 15 talents. They're all low skill. One says use scorch instead of fireball sub 30% and the other is don't press combustion on pull. Being an active doesn't necessarily mean it is high skill, while being a passive does not make it low skill.

Tbh, I miss old combustion where it was big dot but I quite enjoy being able to play my fire mage for the entire expansion and not feel like shit.

[Herpie]

I had a feeling this would just turn into you expressing your dislike for passive talents and wanting them to be more "casual" and less "optimal". Also, you talk about loving the hot streak playstyle but you don't seem to understand that that playstyle is strongest and most fun when its all about building your crit streaks. Unless you want all the actives in the talents to contribute to hot streak, they will never be optimal due to gcds and effectively wasting time that could be used casting fireball, leading to more crits and pyros. I'm done for more buttons to press as a mage, but having the active talents be those additional buttons but not contributing to the playstyle, other than just raw damage, is just boring and would probably feel bad to play when the goal of the spec is to crit chain into pyros. Also, I wouldn't consider pyroclasm or meteor higher skill than kindling. Pyroclasm and meteor are literally just press me when I'm up, but save meteor if cds are close so long as you avoid wasting a potential cast. Lastly, I'm not sure if you've played with any of the level 15 talents. They're all low skill. One says use scorch instead of fireball sub 30% and the other is don't press combustion on pull. Being an active doesn't necessarily mean it is high skill, while being a passive does not make it low skill.

Tbh, I miss old combustion where it was big dot but I quite enjoy being able to play my fire mage for the entire expansion and not feel like shit.

I see what you mean by "that playstyle is strongest and most fun when its all about building your crit streaks". But that is an opinion, i wouldnt mind if the hot-streak/instant pyro mechanic was the base of what we did with the spec, but have other ways of doing good damage on top of that.
Furthermore i feel it is unfair to reduce my post to a simple expression of dislike towards passives. while i indeed expressed my dislike for passives, it was not at all the sole focus of my post i actually mostly expressed dislike at the lack of meaningful choice in the talents. I build my critisism from a viewpoint that is very different than yours appearantly. I dont mind your critisism at all off course, but i am also interested in what you would change to fit your own desired playstyle while making choice matter (if you would change something that is).

also, about low-high skill: I didnt wanna put a qualification of high skill on any of the talents, but in the case of firestarter and scorch; they are not just just passives that don't change anything (and that is fun imho). in case of pyroclasm i would argue that its is higher skill than the other two, because you would have to remain immobile for 4 seconds which could be challenging on certain fights, right? i am sure that any experienced mage would have no problem planning this (especially with shimmer), but there is definatly more to it than watching meteor come off CD, and watching the CD of combustion decrease.

EDIT: I should also clarify that i actually don't have anything against passives, as long as they have an interesting effect on how you play. I don't hate IF for example; if you min max with the stacks you are rewarded for it, right? (at least you used to be in WoD). I find kindling more boring since it doesnt reward skillfull play. that doesnt mean it is neccesarily bad... i just don't want it to be so good that i am forced to take it. I hope that clarifies my standpoint on passives.

And off course i also like to see a fire spec that is competative every second of a new expansion, but even when it sucked (like the beginning of WoD) i have always had fun with it. I've raided casual enough that i was always allowed to play the spec that i liked, i have been maining fire since TBC, and will continue to do so. frost and arcane specs are things i look into when i am a bit bored at the end of expansions.

[lopstar]

I think your opinion and your arguments lack alot in matter of experience in this expansion and "skill", as you like to call it yourself.
Calling IF a low-skill pick is just stupid. At this moment there is very little reasons to take RoP, even if you play it perfectly the reward is so small, that it's not worth. - And most ppl don't play perfect( Not even you ) If RoP should be the "high-skill" pick, it should have a way better reward. Cause atm it's "high" risk, low reward.

Flame on / PF
PF as talent is new, it was before an artifact weapon trait. Now it's the cleave/add talent instead of flame on, and it's not that bad actually. Flame on has been seen in different variations, now as a passive. I believe it was an active in EN. - DB as a ST talent? Can't see why. We're ranged dps, no reason to stand in melee.

Ring of frost and Ice ward is one of the only viable CC mages have. They are actually pretty usefull both of them. Ring of frost can for example be used on Coven and aggramar for adds, same can Frost nova ( Ice ward ). Frenetic speed is good, yes, but it doesn't bring anything to a raid setup.

Conflag doesn't bring anything to the table, it's a useless talent. Even more than UM was.

Kindling is a bad talent atm, but wasn't before pre-patch due to high crit and trinkets who lined up with RoP and kindling. It was actually quite rewarding to play with kindling. Which Cd's would it mess up?
Pyrcoclasm is great, but with bracers it means that fire is more RNG than before. Making very high parses right now needs a good amount of luck cause u need both good pyroclasm and bracer procs. Outside combustion you pretty much don't have any dmg without procs.


to Cinderquill:
Meteor is not just a "press me when up" - talent. Then you don't utilize it correct.

I actually love playing fire mage right now and i hope they will balance it to be the top spec in the new expansion. Allthough it's hard to believe that will be the case.

[Cinderquill]

I think your opinion and your arguments lack alot in matter of experience in this expansion and "skill", as you like to call it yourself.
Calling IF a low-skill pick is just stupid. At this moment there is very little reasons to take RoP, even if you play it perfectly the reward is so small, that it's not worth. - And most ppl don't play perfect( Not even you ) If RoP should be the "high-skill" pick, it should have a way better reward. Cause atm it's "high" risk, low reward.

Flame on / PF
PF as talent is new, it was before an artifact weapon trait. Now it's the cleave/add talent instead of flame on, and it's not that bad actually. Flame on has been seen in different variations, now as a passive. I believe it was an active in EN. - DB as a ST talent? Can't see why. We're ranged dps, no reason to stand in melee.

Ring of frost and Ice ward is one of the only viable CC mages have. They are actually pretty usefull both of them. Ring of frost can for example be used on Coven and aggramar for adds, same can Frost nova ( Ice ward ). Frenetic speed is good, yes, but it doesn't bring anything to a raid setup.

Conflag doesn't bring anything to the table, it's a useless talent. Even more than UM was.

Kindling is a bad talent atm, but wasn't before pre-patch due to high crit and trinkets who lined up with RoP and kindling. It was actually quite rewarding to play with kindling. Which Cd's would it mess up?
Pyrcoclasm is great, but with bracers it means that fire is more RNG than before. Making very high parses right now needs a good amount of luck cause u need both good pyroclasm and bracer procs. Outside combustion you pretty much don't have any dmg without procs.


to Cinderquill:
Meteor is not just a "press me when up" - talent. Then you don't utilize it correct.

I actually love playing fire mage right now and i hope they will balance it to be the top spec in the new expansion. Allthough it's hard to believe that will be the case.

You missed the part where i said meteor is a press me when up ability but there's exceptions. "but save meteor if cds are close so long as you avoid wasting a potential cast" Kingaroth would also be different usage depending on timings since you wanna use it on the adds mainly.

[Cinderquill]

I had a feeling this would just turn into you expressing your dislike for passive talents and wanting them to be more "casual" and less "optimal". Also, you talk about loving the hot streak playstyle but you don't seem to understand that that playstyle is strongest and most fun when its all about building your crit streaks. Unless you want all the actives in the talents to contribute to hot streak, they will never be optimal due to gcds and effectively wasting time that could be used casting fireball, leading to more crits and pyros. I'm done for more buttons to press as a mage, but having the active talents be those additional buttons but not contributing to the playstyle, other than just raw damage, is just boring and would probably feel bad to play when the goal of the spec is to crit chain into pyros. Also, I wouldn't consider pyroclasm or meteor higher skill than kindling. Pyroclasm and meteor are literally just press me when I'm up, but save meteor if cds are close so long as you avoid wasting a potential cast. Lastly, I'm not sure if you've played with any of the level 15 talents. They're all low skill. One says use scorch instead of fireball sub 30% and the other is don't press combustion on pull. Being an active doesn't necessarily mean it is high skill, while being a passive does not make it low skill.

Tbh, I miss old combustion where it was big dot but I quite enjoy being able to play my fire mage for the entire expansion and not feel like shit.

I see what you mean by "that playstyle is strongest and most fun when its all about building your crit streaks". But that is an opinion, i wouldnt mind if the hot-streak/instant pyro mechanic was the base of what we did with the spec, but have other ways of doing good damage on top of that.
Furthermore i feel it is unfair to reduce my post to a simple expression of dislike towards passives. while i indeed expressed my dislike for passives, it was not at all the sole focus of my post i actually mostly expressed dislike at the lack of meaningful choice in the talents. I build my critisism from a viewpoint that is very different than yours appearantly. I dont mind your critisism at all off course, but i am also interested in what you would change to fit your own desired playstyle while making choice matter (if you would change something that is).

also, about low-high skill: I didnt wanna put a qualification of high skill on any of the talents, but in the case of firestarter and scorch; they are not just just passives that don't change anything (and that is fun imho). in case of pyroclasm i would argue that its is higher skill than the other two, because you would have to remain immobile for 4 seconds which could be challenging on certain fights, right? i am sure that any experienced mage would have no problem planning this (especially with shimmer), but there is definatly more to it than watching meteor come off CD, and watching the CD of combustion decrease.

EDIT: I should also clarify that i actually don't have anything against passives, as long as they have an interesting effect on how you play. I don't hate IF for example; if you min max with the stacks you are rewarded for it, right? (at least you used to be in WoD). I find kindling more boring since it doesnt reward skillfull play. that doesnt mean it is neccesarily bad... i just don't want it to be so good that i am forced to take it. I hope that clarifies my standpoint on passives.

And off course i also like to see a fire spec that is competative every second of a new expansion, but even when it sucked (like the beginning of WoD) i have always had fun with it. I've raided casual enough that i was always allowed to play the spec that i liked, i have been maining fire since TBC, and will continue to do so. frost and arcane specs are things i look into when i am a bit bored at the end of expansions.

When I said it was strongest and most fun when it is all about building hot streaks, I meant that playstyle becomes exceedingly more fun and stronger when it has things that support it. I didn't mean strongest for the spec, but I understand that I didn't make that clear enough at first.
Also, there is meaningful choice in a lot of the talents. Ring of frost and ice ward can be extremely useful in the small amount of raid encounters where cc is needed like aggramar. Kindling can see lots of use even when not the strongest if it means your combustion lines up with adds spawning. Meteor can lead to an increase in use in a similar way but maybe with a more cleave based use rather than aoe. Pyroclams to me just seems like a filler thing when the other two don't have the roles in a fight. Living bomb and flame patch are both really good aoe talents, but flame patch is more stacking oriented and living bomb is more burst oriented along with being better for boss damage while also doing aoe. Conflag is just something to take that's really boring. Shimmer is just so broken in terms of usefulness that I don't think there will ever be a talent you take instead which kinda sucks, but shimmer is so nice, I can't imagine playing without it. Rune of power can see usage over incanters flow even when incanters flow is the best in situations where you need the burst. For example, your guild needs extra damage to help focus an add or something, rune of power would be very useful for that. Phoenix flames sees use in aoe/cleave fights and flame on is the go to single target. Pyromaniac is fairly good with high crit. Fire starter and searing touch are good with lower crit. Searing touch can be extremely useful if the execute phase is chaotic and needs you to have lots of mobility or just more damage in that phase. Firestarter is honestly my least favorite of the three since you only use it for pure dps gains aside from kingaroth where you might use it just to have a combustion while you save your actual combust for adds. There are meaningful choices to be made in the talent trees, they may not be as meaningful as you might like, but I feel like choosing on a fight basis is better design than choosing on a personal basis. Honestly, you can still play 90 percent of the game with any talents set up you want. Raids and sometimes dungeons would be the exceptions.
Getting a successful hard cast on a 4 second pyro is only challenging if you don't have shimmer. Anybody who raids higher than lfr can successfully get that off with two charges of shimmer available.
I do think it would be super fucking cool if blizzard found a way to put old combustion back in the talents. Maybe instead of pyroclasm we get something that turns combustion back into a big dot cd and make fireblast spread ingite again. It might not be as strong compared to current fire, but the option would be nice and maybe even a better option on some fights in the future. There's obviously a lot of balancing they'd have to do for that, so much so that they probably never will, but that would probably be the only change id make to the talents.

[Herpie]

I think your opinion and your arguments lack alot in matter of experience in this expansion

I accept that

Calling IF a low-skill pick is just stupid. At this moment there is very little reasons to take RoP, even if you play it perfectly the reward is so small, that it's not worth. - And most ppl don't play perfect( Not even you ) If RoP should be the "high-skill" pick, it should have a way better reward. Cause atm it's "high" risk, low reward.

As cinder already replied, there are good reasons to take RoP if there are vulnarability phases or adds that need to die very quickly. taking RoP and 'skillfully' applying it should be benefecial (and if it isnt, itll certainly be balanced so it is in BFA.
on my liberal use of the word 'skill': if a talent requires ANY input or interpretation from the player, i use the word skill... even if it as simple as not using combustion for the first 10% of a fight. just to indicate that you need to comply your playstyle. don't give the word to much value.

DB as a ST talent? Can't see why. We're ranged dps, no reason to stand in melee.

just an idea... i kinda liked it when it was really strong in late WoD, feel free to disagree

Ring of frost and Ice ward is one of the only viable CC mages have. They are actually pretty usefull both of them. Ring of frost can for example be used on Coven and aggramar for adds, same can Frost nova ( Ice ward ). Frenetic speed is good, yes, but it doesn't bring anything to a raid setup.

this is probably where my lack of raid experience in Legion plays a role. i take your word for it. having 2 frost novas is actually pretty cool. but i don't like ring of frost (i don't have a rational explanation for this, i just dont like it... never did XD)

Kindling is a bad talent atm, but wasn't before pre-patch due to high crit and trinkets who lined up with RoP and kindling. It was actually quite rewarding to play with kindling. Which Cd's would it mess up?
Pyrcoclasm is great, but with bracers it means that fire is more RNG than before. Making very high parses right now needs a good amount of luck cause u need both good pyroclasm and bracer procs. Outside combustion you pretty much don't have any dmg without procs.

once again, ill take your word for it that kindlingis was actually nice.
I have indeed seen the bracers/pyroclasm increase RNG by quite a bi, it increases the difference between lucky and unlucky bossfights by a sizable amount it seems. i do like it though, hope it turns out not to bad in BFA.

I actually love playing fire mage right now and i hope they will balance it to be the top spec in the new expansion. Allthough it's hard to believe that will be the case.

i love it too, always have, always will. i don't really care about being top spec, like i said before; i play in casual communities, and am comfortable playing a non-optimal spec, and trying to make the most of that sub-optimal spec. i used to do pretty well and keep up with guildies in better specs and classes (but i am a bit rusty now after 3 years of inactivity).

[Herpie]

When I said it was strongest and most fun when it is all about building hot streaks, I meant that playstyle becomes exceedingly more fun and stronger when it has things that support it. I didn't mean strongest for the spec, but I understand that I didn't make that clear enough at first.

i i see... well i do agree that synergie between talents should be something blizz should aim for.

Also, there is meaningful choice in a lot of the talents. Ring of frost and ice ward can be extremely useful in the small amount of raid encounters where cc is needed like aggramar.

i take your word for it, i havent raided in legion, so i cant really comment.

Kindling can see lots of use even when not the strongest if it means your combustion lines up with adds spawning. Meteor can lead to an increase in use in a similar way but maybe with a more cleave based use rather than aoe. Pyroclams to me just seems like a filler thing when the other two don't have the roles in a fight.

Its not that i dont see that kindling can be good... i just don't really like it. meteor and pyroclasm playstyles appeal to me so much more in terms of fun. but i understand that not everyone feels this way... no biggie... as long as people are liking talents they should maintain them, i am realistic and do not expect Blizz to build the firemage around my personal wishes... thats why i made this post... to see what you all like and dislike about the spec.

Living bomb and flame patch are both really good aoe talents, but flame patch is more stacking oriented and living bomb is more burst oriented along with being better for boss damage while also doing aoe. Conflag is just something to take that's really boring. Shimmer is just so broken in terms of usefulness that I don't think there will ever be a talent you take instead which kinda sucks, but shimmer is so nice, I can't imagine playing without it. Rune of power can see usage over incanters flow even when incanters flow is the best in situations where you need the burst. For example, your guild needs extra damage to help focus an add or something, rune of power would be very useful for that. Phoenix flames sees use in aoe/cleave fights and flame on is the go to single target. Pyromaniac is fairly good with high crit. Fire starter and searing touch are good with lower crit. Searing touch can be extremely useful if the execute phase is chaotic and needs you to have lots of mobility or just more damage in that phase. Firestarter is honestly my least favorite of the three since you only use it for pure dps gains aside from kingaroth where you might use it just to have a combustion while you save your actual combust for adds. There are meaningful choices to be made in the talent trees, they may not be as meaningful as you might like, but I feel like choosing on a fight basis is better design than choosing on a personal basis. Honestly, you can still play 90 percent of the game with any talents set up you want. Raids and sometimes dungeons would be the exceptions.

Agreed on pretty much all of this, thanks for providing some insight on the picks, ill keep that in mind when continuing experimentation with the fire spec.

Getting a successful hard cast on a 4 second pyro is only challenging if you don't have shimmer. Anybody who raids higher than lfr can successfully get that off with two charges of shimmer available.

probably true.

I do think it would be super fucking cool if blizzard found a way to put old combustion back in the talents. Maybe instead of pyroclasm we get something that turns combustion back into a big dot cd and make fireblast spread ingite again. It might not be as strong compared to current fire, but the option would be nice and maybe even a better option on some fights in the future. There's obviously a lot of balancing they'd have to do for that, so much so that they probably never will, but that would probably be the only change id make to the talents.

i would have no problem with that. although i would not remove pyroclasm but you probably already guessed that

[Cinderquill]

When I said it was strongest and most fun when it is all about building hot streaks, I meant that playstyle becomes exceedingly more fun and stronger when it has things that support it. I didn't mean strongest for the spec, but I understand that I didn't make that clear enough at first.

i i see... well i do agree that synergie between talents should be something blizz should aim for.

Also, there is meaningful choice in a lot of the talents. Ring of frost and ice ward can be extremely useful in the small amount of raid encounters where cc is needed like aggramar.

i take your word for it, i havent raided in legion, so i cant really comment.

Kindling can see lots of use even when not the strongest if it means your combustion lines up with adds spawning. Meteor can lead to an increase in use in a similar way but maybe with a more cleave based use rather than aoe. Pyroclams to me just seems like a filler thing when the other two don't have the roles in a fight.

Its not that i dont see that kindling can be good... i just don't really like it. meteor and pyroclasm playstyles appeal to me so much more in terms of fun. but i understand that not everyone feels this way... no biggie... as long as people are liking talents they should maintain them, i am realistic and do not expect Blizz to build the firemage around my personal wishes... thats why i made this post... to see what you all like and dislike about the spec.

Living bomb and flame patch are both really good aoe talents, but flame patch is more stacking oriented and living bomb is more burst oriented along with being better for boss damage while also doing aoe. Conflag is just something to take that's really boring. Shimmer is just so broken in terms of usefulness that I don't think there will ever be a talent you take instead which kinda sucks, but shimmer is so nice, I can't imagine playing without it. Rune of power can see usage over incanters flow even when incanters flow is the best in situations where you need the burst. For example, your guild needs extra damage to help focus an add or something, rune of power would be very useful for that. Phoenix flames sees use in aoe/cleave fights and flame on is the go to single target. Pyromaniac is fairly good with high crit. Fire starter and searing touch are good with lower crit. Searing touch can be extremely useful if the execute phase is chaotic and needs you to have lots of mobility or just more damage in that phase. Firestarter is honestly my least favorite of the three since you only use it for pure dps gains aside from kingaroth where you might use it just to have a combustion while you save your actual combust for adds. There are meaningful choices to be made in the talent trees, they may not be as meaningful as you might like, but I feel like choosing on a fight basis is better design than choosing on a personal basis. Honestly, you can still play 90 percent of the game with any talents set up you want. Raids and sometimes dungeons would be the exceptions.

Agreed on pretty much all of this, thanks for providing some insight on the picks, ill keep that in mind when continuing experimentation with the fire spec.

Getting a successful hard cast on a 4 second pyro is only challenging if you don't have shimmer. Anybody who raids higher than lfr can successfully get that off with two charges of shimmer available.

probably true.

I do think it would be super fucking cool if blizzard found a way to put old combustion back in the talents. Maybe instead of pyroclasm we get something that turns combustion back into a big dot cd and make fireblast spread ingite again. It might not be as strong compared to current fire, but the option would be nice and maybe even a better option on some fights in the future. There's obviously a lot of balancing they'd have to do for that, so much so that they probably never will, but that would probably be the only change id make to the talents.

i would have no problem with that. although i would not remove pyroclasm but you probably already guessed that

Honestly, I prefer pyroclasm and meteor more than kindling too.
I'd prefer to keep pyroclasm if they did put in a new talent for old combustion, but I kinda dislike the talent right now since it feels so weak compared to the bracers. If it didn't get nerfed, it woudl just be the straight up best talent and that wouldn't be fair to the other talents so I understand why they nerfed it.

[Huxneva]

I gave a full account of my Fire leveling experience in the 'According to everyone fire is bad right now.' post, so I'll save you from repeating it here.
My simple recommendation for greatly improving the Fire spec would be:

• Replace Flame-on in the 60 talent row with "Firestarter" from the Warmode talents (Your fireball reduces the cooldown of your combustion by 5 seconds)
• Make Flame-on baseline for fire.

This would return some fluidity to the rotation witch now feels stunted post Legion, while also preserving a meaningful choice in the 60 talent row.