Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Guides and discussions of all things specific to the Ice Lancers of Azeroth.
Shadra
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Shadra Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:39 pm

I cast IL(with FoF) after every frostbolt~
My FoF sometimes at 1~2 stacks....and the next Jet can be used.
So should I use Frozen orb on CD? I'am afraid it will waste some FoF :O

the next is should I delay IV to go with the ring? or just use as usual thanks!
Kinda curious about the first question myself, as I don't think I fully understand it either and really need to work on my Orb usage.

As for IV with the ring.. Only delay it if you know the fight will last long enough to get full use, but not so long that you are losing a chance to use it again. IE: If the fight is going to be around 5 mins, should be okay to delay IV, but if it's around 6.5 mins, use it on CD.

TL:DR: depends on length of fight.
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Breaktheice
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Breaktheice Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:42 pm

the next is should I delay IV to go with the ring? or just use as usual thanks!
This is similar to delaying Mirror Image for Icy Veins (a bonus read under Thermal Void): it comes down to the fight length.

The shortest fight length where you can get an extra use of ring over IV with at least 2 uses of each total is 5 minutes. Start by looking at this fight length:

+ 5 min fight
IV at 0, 3
Ring at 0, 2, 4

In this case, delaying IV to line up with the third ring use can be worth it. For convenience, let's look at other lengths too:

+ 6 min fight
IV 0, 3
Ring at 0, 2, 4
Delay: Yes

+ 7 min fight
IV at 0, 3, 6
Ring at 0, 2, 4, 6
Delay: No you lose an IV use.

+ 8 min fight
IV at 0, 3, 6
Ring at 0, 2, 4, 6
Delay: Not needed, you have 2 synchs at 0, 6 and with delay you will still end up with 2 (0, 4). Not harmful if you delay though.

+ 9 min fight
IV at 0, 3, 6
Ring at 0, 2, 4, 6, 8
Delay: Not needed, since you get 2 synchs with delay (0 > 4) but they already have 2 synchs (0 > 6). Delaying will not harm nor benefit you.

+ 10 min fight
IV at 0, 3, 6, 9
Ring at 0, 2, 4, 6, 8
Delay: No, as delaying to 4 gives 0, 4, 7 ... ? and a use is lost (synch at 6 is also lost).

+ 11 min fight
IV at 0, 3, 6, 9
Ring at 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10
Delay: Yes, as it gives a third synch without compromising a use (0 > 4 > 7 > 10) versus just synchs at 0 > 6

As you can see, in certain cases, it is beneficial to delay IV to synch with Ring. However, in such a case you need to make sure your group uses the Ring on cool down (or relatively close to it). If your group delays ring then this synch is again hard to pull off. Also will not work on fights 4 mins or shorter, so you need to know the relative kill potential of your group. Once fights start lasting 7-10 minutes, you really shouldn't bother since it will be either a break-even or a net loss to delay IV.

If it's too risky to make an educated guess, then don't bother trying to synch them.
masteryogurt
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby masteryogurt Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:31 am

Why are you waiting until 4xFoF to Fbomb?

No, TV doesn't change how you want to weave. In the end it's worth more DPS to get additional shatterlance buffed ILs than it is to get more Fbomb explosions (on single target).
Reason is Breaktheice guide says for 4pc: "With Frost Bomb: place Bomb only if you have 4 FoF charges, not 2. "
I assume of course that Frost bomb is supposed to go out before water jet and frozen orb. But that above quote is for situations where neither is coming off CD.
*FYI I don't have tome of shifting words.

But you answered my question I believe, thermal void does not change the rotation in regards to water jet or frost bomb. Although I have to imagine, if I'm using icy veins and it's getting low, I probably won't hang onto any FoF charges (if Frozen orb or Water Jet isn't off CD soon). Normally according to the guide you try to hit 4 FoF with 4pc without those two abilities near coming off CD, then hit frost bomb and dump them. Though it's rare 4 FoF charges occur with 4pc, with how much uptime with water jet there is.
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Frosted
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Frosted Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:47 am

You never just dump ice lances with the Tome trinket, regardless of Fbomb; and there is no reason to wait until 4 FoF charges to put up Fbomb.

Oh. You don't have Tome. Well then, that is unfortunate.
masteryogurt
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby masteryogurt Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:06 am

You never just dump ice lances with the Tome trinket, regardless of Fbomb; and there is no reason to wait until 4 FoF charges to put up Fbomb.

Oh. You don't have Tome. Well then, that is unfortunate.
Yes it is, I hope to get it soon.

May I ask then what is your personal criteria for applying Fbomb to a target? Simply whenever you have a FoF proc/ready to ice lance?
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Frosted
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Frosted Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:41 am

2 FoF charges if I have the 4pc and Tome.
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Breaktheice
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Breaktheice Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:19 am

Frost Bomb (assuming no Tome) should be applied:
+ Before Water Jet
+ Before Frozen Orb
+ Anytime you cap out at FoF outside those two conditions
+ Anytime you can potentially cap out even if not at max FoF charges in your current state*

Since the cap on FoF with 4 PC is 4, I just put 4 there. However it's actually never recommended to go for 4 x FoF with Archie trinket or during a Water Jet, as munch risks increase. I'll re-word it.

Outside of Water Jet, and without Archie trinket, if you do end up with 4 x FoF, it's actually fine to just Bomb > dump all 4. The comment was made in the 4 PC section, not the Archie trinket section.

Worth noting that with 4 PC, the up-time you will have on Bomb should you run it is actually insanely high due to the more frequent Water Jets. With Archie trinket it just becomes a PITA to handle and UM just pulls ahead in numbers, even in sims.

* Since Bomb lasts a shorter time than the 4 PC Water Jet, and each Frostbolt during a Water Jet can yield 2 x FoF, you don't want to wait till you're actually capped out on FoF during a Water Jet; apply your Frost Bomb before Water Jet, and sometime before Water Jet terminates. As explained in the 4 PC Water Jet section, you never want to go to 4 x FoF intentionally during the Jet. So start casting Lances once you're at 2-3.
Last edited by Breaktheice on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
masteryogurt
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby masteryogurt Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:33 am

Thank you for the clarification sir. Makes sense.
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby masteryogurt Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:45 am

I acquired tome of shifting words, and have a few lingering questions regarding frost rotation that I'd appreciate any help on.

With 4pc and Tome...water jet is higher priority than frozen orb right? For single target at least.

Does the water jet guide with 4pc that breaktheice describes...still apply with Tome? I get that you'd never want to cap BR or FoF charges (even if that means hitting ice lance without a ice bolt beforehand). BUT, how about in a situation where you have 1 BF, and 3 FoF procs? Guide recommends hitting BF, then a FoF. I wonder if that changes now though with Tome.

Additionally, my thinking with water jet was always to hit out as many bolts as possible without proc'ing. But with weaving plus all the procs with water jet and frozen orb, is this still the case? Or does the priority more shift to...when jetting any FoF proc you get, weave it. Don't build up 2-3 FoF procs.
Thank you.
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Breaktheice
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Breaktheice Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:05 am

Frozen Orb is still quite powerful and whether or not you use Frozen Orb over Water Jet will come down to the fight itself.
+ In a single target fight, it would be okay to start off with Water Jet on the pull over Frozen Orb.
+ If however the fight has multiple targets off the bat, Frozen Orb would probably be a better choice.
+ If a fight starts off with a single target, and shortly transitions into multiple targets (mythic Reaver, Telhari, etc.) then it's better to start with Jet and then Orb once the numerous adds are present.
+ If your tanks move the boss into position on the pull, hold off Orb and WJ instead.

> Remember, FO is an amazing DPET spell in your arsenal, never delay it for too long.

As for your weaving question, look at this:



+ Tome's passive only lasts for 0.9 seconds after a Frostbolt
+ BF procs occur when Frostbolt is done casting and this gives you enough time to quickly Ice Lance if you end up with 2 x BF and follow the Ice Lance with a FFB.
+ FoF procs occur when Frostbolt or FFB land on your target - this gives you enough time to re-weave without overriding.

> With Tome, I'd not recommend FrBomb. The sheer amount of extra FB you are casting before Ice Lances makes UM a very powerful talent now.
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prateems
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby prateems Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:49 am

If I'm using H. Prophecy and H. Tome together, is it a DPS gain to dump non FB-IL weaved FoF procs on a target marked with Mark of Doom? For example on a fight like Xhul or Iskar.

I do also have H. Gaze. I was also wondering if it would be beneficial to run Prophecy/Tome on fights like the aforementioned, over Gaze/Tome.
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Breaktheice
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Breaktheice Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:31 am

First question, generally no. Prophecy of Fear doesn't change your rotation as Frost, you shouldn't break your rotation whenever it procs, but target switching to your marked target is okay, provided it doesn't compromise your group's strat on the boss itself. Remember, Tome itself offers no stats but takes up a trinket slot, so if you're not utilizing the passive it gives you, it's a major error.

Second question, you can actually switch to Gaze + Tome on such fights and find that your DPS can still hold steady and be literally the same, and in some cases better. Frost has amazing freedom of choice between Gaze and Prophecy, since they sim so close anyway. Trinkets don't really handicap Frost in HFC. It's not like Arcane where PoF is so blatantly overpowered. Pairing either Gaze or Prophecy with Tome can work and produce the same results for you.

On a fight like Xhul I managed 82k on a pug heroic with PoF + normal Tome. If we run Heroics again I'll try to swap over to Gaze + Tome to see if it's much of a difference, though I personally think it wont be. You can obviously do more if you have a Heroic Tome, but we can't all decide our RNG coin rolls/drops, can we now :D
sephkun
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby sephkun Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:19 pm

I've looked through the guide and perhaps I missed it but I'm not completely sure how to handle T18 4 piece water jet with crystal. Say on my opener do I want to water jet and hold my crystal until water jet is done or should I do the opposite and perhaps use my orb with crystal and save water jet for when crystal expires? I'm assuming you wouldn't want to waste any of your water jet by say getting FoF stacks up then using crystal and forgoing the remainder of water jet.
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Breaktheice
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Breaktheice Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:20 am

You will Water Jet on the opener and either use excess procs before going into Crystal, or terminate the Water Jet early and go for Crystal with full procs. In both cases, the risk of munch is high, but the first choice is way is better. Then PC + Orb, and once Crystal terminates your WJ should be close to ready again.
sherndy
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby sherndy Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:09 am

a few weeks ago I inquired about whether unprocced IL were worth on an specific situation and got no replies. I'll just take this post to say: it IS worth to refresh IV with unprocced ILs on some situations and the "IL w/o procs is always a dps loss" claim is a misleading advice.
I won't present proof since I'm not here to debunk anything, this is just a disclaimer.
It's a huge dps boost when you can cycle two orbs on the same IV making sure the orbs will hit multiple targets (xul, archimonde doggies, manno's first phases), if you don't have the archimonde trink, and is wearing iskars/manno's trinks, like I am.

you can easily WJ->IV->FO->WJ->WJ->FO->WJ->IVends.
the way I personally do it is to IV on the 3rd to 4th finger's fb into wj, then do the fb/finger lance thing until wj is over and finger drops down to 1/2, follow it up with orb and finger spam, on the downtime between orbs/wjs i spam IL if manno trink is up, unless FB quick cast thingy is up, even if i have ffb to cast (unless they are about to expire), and always try to go into WJ 2/3/4 with at least 5s up on IV so i dont waste ffb to make sure IV goes on in the WJ rotation. if manno's trink happen not to proc on any of those downtimes and/or I get real bad rng on fingers procs when not on wj/orb I make an educated guess whether it's worth or not to try and extend IV (based on how far I am from the next wj/orb or how many gcds I'll lose with movement/mechanics and stuff. IE: on archimonde N/H i IV on the first doomfire - as i cast orb on it - and, if not targeted by burst/doomfire and tanks don't go for a marathon with it i can orb on the 2nd deathcaller with IV still up, if I get targeted by any of the above I dont even try to extend it. - take note that in this situation the orb will go into two, maybe three, targets and is only doable in favorable rng and is prob a dps loss to IL w/o fingers most of the time a dif result goes into the later IV that can orb onto up to 7 targets)

I'll even go as far and say that with IV up and WJ/orb on cd spamming IL on manno's trink proc (assuming multiple targets) is a dps boost by itself, especially on lower haste and/or with iskar's trink.

sorry for the poor english/text format/getting sidetracked as fuck as i went on writing, it's too late to write properly.
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Breaktheice
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Breaktheice Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:54 pm

^This is, unfortunately false. The explanation as to why is pretty easy.

What you're looking for while extending Icy Veins with non-FoF Ice Lances it the relative strength of the Non-FoF IL to the other core spells in Frost's rotation. In other words, the stronger the non-FoF IL is, the less damage you lose by casting it in order to prolong Icy Veins. The reason you would be interested in the relative strength of the non-FoF IL is because you're opting to cast it over another core spell.

The problem with extending Icy Veins with non-FoF IL is that Ice Lance was (some time in recent history) nerfed by 40%, and in order to compensate for this FoF damage was buffed by 140%. Once this change was in, non-FoF IL to extend Icy Veins was pretty much dead. Aside this FoF buff, don't forget that a FFB shot with Frost's 2 PC is buffed considerably well. Throw onto that the fact that Frostbolt damage and Frostfire bolt damage were both increased by 20%, and the discrepancy of Non-FoF IL to these spells is increased even more.

The good news is that without Archie trinket, but with 4 PC, it's ridiculously easy to push Icy Veins long enough to accommodate 2 Orbs on add heavy fights like that ones you mentioned without non FoF IL. Try it yourself.

What you seem to not be using is Blizzard. I'd suggest throwing in Blizzard anytime you can hit 5+ adds with it, since it will generate FoFs for you, AND reduce the cooldown on your FO at the same time. This helps you twofold: the FoFs can extend your Icy Veins, and the Frozen Orb coming off cooldown is just party time on add fights :mrgreen:
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Komma
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Komma Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:19 pm

a few weeks ago I inquired about whether unprocced IL were worth on an specific situation and got no replies. I'll just take this post to say: it IS worth to refresh IV with unprocced ILs on some situations and the "IL w/o procs is always a dps loss" claim is a misleading advice.
I won't present proof since I'm not here to debunk anything, this is just a disclaimer.
Claims that are made without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. You can't just say "it IS a good idea, but I'm not going to present proof for why".

"It is good just because I say it is" does not work. Our forum viewers expect more than that.
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sherndy
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby sherndy Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:32 pm

@komma, it's not an assumption or anything like that. I do know for a fact that i'd rather IL than fb and hope for procs on my first IV on monde, for example. The basis for this claim are the in-game on the go analysis of my own numbers.
I'm not dedicated enough to sim this kind of stuff to present evidence.

@breaktheice, my claim isnt that IL by it's unfingered damage and the IV refreshing effect is worth casting, I assume my trinks are most heavily the reason it's a boost. But I do know for a fact that when I get to loop orb twice on my first IV on archimonde I'm at about 70k dps on the 2nd allure, and when I don't (by casting less IL's) it goes down to about 65k dps. These numbers are from fewer than statistically admissible tries, about 80/90, but I still find ~8% dps boost something worth noticing.
About the blizzard thing you're completely right, I never even considered using it, I might undervalue blizzard from my experience with blizzarding on trash, but then somewhat heave aoe trash rarely survives enough for me not to have neither wj nor orb.
Still about blizzarding, I'm not fond of ice floes (I don't even know if it works with blizz's channeling), but I'd finder rather difficult to fit channeling on doggie phase/manno (I assume the potential to losing dps when breaking the channel at bad moments is a slight dps loss). Yet I'll try and do that and see how it works.
Anyway, I still won't back down on plain IL when blizzard is not really and option.
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Rinoa
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Re: Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Rinoa Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:05 am

This kind of anecdotal information is pretty much the lowest form of evidence there is. You have not provided any non-anecdotal numbers which we can analyze in the form of logs or simulations. This discussion is rather moot until you have the enough information to back up your claims.

We want a higher standard than this.

On a different note, you can use Ice Floes to channel Blizzard on the move.
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Breaktheice
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Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

Unread postby Breaktheice Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:53 am

On a different note, you can use Ice Floes to channel Blizzard on the move.
This.

Although I still hope for the day we can Conjure and leave Blizzard running on a spot like the legendary Miss Jaina Proudmoore.

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