[TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Guides and discussions of all things specific to the Ice Lancers of Azeroth.
Trelane
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[TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Trelane Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:25 am

Komma Mod Edit: A few posts from Akraen's DPET thread spawned a discussion regarding using APLs to determine whether camping with 1 FoF stack for use with Brain Freeze + 2T16 proc was worth it. I've moved the posts in question to this new APL discussion thread. Unfortunately, the timestamp on the posts makes them precede the title post made by Frosted.
In theory, since you can hold up to 2 FoF charges and FoF charge generation is deterministic outside of Frozen Orb, you can always hang onto 1 FoF charge during frostbolt spam without it being wasted. There shouldn't be any "losing FoF procs". Obviously, you'd have to make sure you spend it before it expires. Since DPET of FoF Ice Lance > DPET of Frostbolt+Icicle until you have ridiculous amounts of mastery and haste, I'm pretty sure it's a DPS gain.

If you have a Simcraft APL for that, I'd be interested in seeing the changes made.
I just changed the following in the default profile from:

Code: Select all

actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.frozen_thoughts.react&buff.fingers_of_frost.up actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.up&(buff.fingers_of_frost.remains<2|(buff.fingers_of_frost.stack>1&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>2))
to:

Code: Select all

actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.up&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>2
Simcraft showed that when holding charges: Average Frostbolt DPS decreased, Ice Lance DPS increased, the number of Ice Lances decreased, and overall DPS decreased marginally. Which is as I expected from the napkin math.

The loss of FoF procs come from the following situation when holding an FoF proc:

[#FoF charges=1]
Finish casting Frostbolt #1, Begin casting Frostbolt #2
[Frostbolt 1 procs FoF, #FoF charges=2]
Finish casting Frostbolt #2, Cast Ice Lance
[Frostbolt #2 procs FoF which is discarded]

This would happen any time FoFs proc from 2 Frostbolts in a row, while holding a charge, due to chain-casting. (Interrupting the second Frostbolt to use up an FoF charge would be even worse). Simcraft showed about 5% fewer Ice Lances with charge-holding.
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Re: [TC]Just a DPET Chart

Unread postby Komma Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:55 am

I just changed the following in the default profile from:

Code: Select all

actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.frozen_thoughts.react&buff.fingers_of_frost.up actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.up&(buff.fingers_of_frost.remains<2|(buff.fingers_of_frost.stack>1&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>2))
to:

Code: Select all

actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.up&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>2
Simcraft showed that when holding charges: Average Frostbolt DPS decreased, Ice Lance DPS increased, the number of Ice Lances decreased, and overall DPS decreased marginally. Which is as I expected from the napkin math.
This is surprising news to me. I'd like to mention that the APL is already cheating with the camping - the case you mentioned where you munch an FoF due to 2 successive frostbolt FoF procs, doesn't happen with the APL you just linked. Any munching is likely due to frozen orb (which shows that the frost APL can be improved), or some other under the hood implementation bugs.

This is very interesting because it suggests that for humans who have non-zero reaction times, camping would mean an even greater loss when compared to simply using FoF IL whenever possible.

I will get back to this later. The Arcane APL looks to be in decent shape, and I'm waiting for some new features to be released before working on it more, so I'm going to look at frost and fire. We should probably start a frost APL thread to investigate this.
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Frosted
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Re: [TC]Just a DPET Chart

Unread postby Frosted Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:58 am

Truth be told, there has never been any evidence for or against this type of thing. Much of the work done on mages has come from sort of "common sense" type approaches (which may very well be wrong).

We should probably change the buff.fingers_of_frost.up to buff.fingers_of_frost.react though. if it's .up SimC will respond immediately ( which is impossible to do in game ). .react will give it some minor delay, mirroring how a real person would respond to FoF charges, I believe.

Also, to better investigate, we should add another condition on the IL usage that looks for Frost Orb CD/use. It should be dumping all charges prior to FO, and probably not attempting to camp during it. This might reduce the number of munched FoFs while 2pc camping.

Also, have you gone through a combat log readout from those APLs? I'm not sure that the situation you cite as a reason for munching will occur using .up (can certainly be wrong).
Trelane
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Re: [TC]Just a DPET Chart

Unread postby Trelane Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:34 am

This is very interesting because it suggests that for humans who have non-zero reaction times, camping would mean an even greater loss when compared to simply using FoF IL whenever possible.
There are other possible sequences where camping "munches" procs as well:

[#FoF charges=1]
Start casting Frostbolt
[Brain Freeze Procs during cast]
Finish casting Frostbolt, Cast FFB
[Frostbolt procs FoF, #FoF charges=2]
[FFB procs FoF which is discarded]

I believe Simcraft could not "cheat" in this case, because FFB has higher priority than 2-charge IL, but I haven't examined the log to find the actual causes of the munching. Even if there were no FoF proc losses though, charge-holding should only be something like <0.5% DPS increase, so the occasional proc loss could easily negate that.
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Frosted
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[TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Frosted Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:40 am

Wherein we discuss all things Frost APL related.
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Komma
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Re: [TC]Just a DPET Chart

Unread postby Komma Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:52 am

This is very interesting because it suggests that for humans who have non-zero reaction times, camping would mean an even greater loss when compared to simply using FoF IL whenever possible.
There are other possible sequences where camping "munches" procs as well:

[#FoF charges=1]
Start casting Frostbolt
[Brain Freeze Procs during cast]
Finish casting Frostbolt, Cast FFB
[Frostbolt procs FoF, #FoF charges=2]
[FFB procs FoF which is discarded]

I believe Simcraft could not "cheat" in this case, because FFB has higher priority than 2-charge IL, but I haven't examined the log to find the actual causes of the munching. Even if there were no FoF proc losses though, charge-holding should only be something like <0.5% DPS increase, so the occasional proc loss could easily negate that.
After spending a few hours tinkering with frost APLs, I have some findings. Let me first state my final conclusion: FoF camping isn't worth it.

The default APL already includes a form of FoF camping, as quoted by Trelane. Whether it's some generic profile like durrty's, or the 4T16H sample profile, both do better with a "fire FoF IL as they come" APL. Obviously, if camping were worth it, there must be something that it's doing wrong. After talking with durrty, he suggested that we implement his strategies to avoid munching FoFs, which seems like the primary reason for any DPS loss. Here's a list of what we tried:

1. I stuck with the "simc instant usage of 2nd FoF proc cheat mode" for now. This means to stay with "fof.up" instead of "fof.react". If proc camping can't get ahead even with this cheat mode, there's no reason that a human would do better.

2. FoF munching due to Frozen Orb:
This one was easily fixed. Adding "action.frozen_orb.in_flight" as a conditional to stop camping and keep dumping FoF ice lances fixes this. Because frozen orb has to travel the default 40 yard distance, this more than did enough for getting rid of FoFs ahead of FO impact.

3. Dumping during meta procs to avoid proc saturation from haste LB ticks:
This one was also easily fixed. By setting a spell_haste conditional of >85%, "spell_haste>0.85", any frost mage not running a high haste build (sorry Akraen!) would be easily detected as under the effect of a meta gem or bloodlust. Using this conditional to dump procs meant avoiding some more cases where you might get saturated by procs.

4. Bomb snapshotting:
The logic behind this is that with bomb snapshotting of meta gem or bloodlust, the high haste would provide increase number of BF procs, which would lead to more gains from 2T16 applying to FoF Ice Lances. Bomb snapshotting is currently not implemented within the APL, but we did get some results. I'll post them in a follow-up post.

Combining all that stuff means that we get new conditionals for ice lances:

Code: Select all

actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.frozen_thoughts.react&buff.fingers_of_frost.up actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.up&(buff.fingers_of_frost.remains<2|(buff.fingers_of_frost.stack>1&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>2)|action.frozen_orb.in_flight|spell_haste>0.85)
The results were clear: despite very small improvements by adding these conditionals, none of these actually bridged the gap between camping and not camping. The loss of procs from camping ultimately outweigh whatever gains we could get from applying 2T16 to FoF IL instead of frostbolt. I tried the same with and without some of these added conditionals, but none of these really changed the conclusion. When you include human reaction times to Ice Lance usage, it only gets worse.

Considering added difficulty of camping, I can only say that camping strategies don't offer any benefits, at least in single target cases.
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Komma Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:42 am

EDIT: Apparently I've been misusing spell_haste syntax in the APL. I'll have to recheck things.
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Re: [TC]Just a DPET Chart

Unread postby Frosted Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:55 pm


-snip- Stuff on FoF 1 charge camping
To perhaps back this up a little bit more and provide some napkin numbers on why the 2pc may not be as strong as we first believed (at least in terms of camping):

Over the course of those sims, 60ish BFs were generated. Let's assume we perfectly distribute the buffs into two categories, either a FoF-IL or a FB + icicle (we never used one with a following BF proc - even though this is the best option).

I don't want to type up something like this, so I wrote it out (Hopefully you can read it ^^). If you want to skip the algebra, just don't open the spoiler.
Spoiler:
Image
I don't have this written in there, but every munched FoF is ~400 DPS loss from the total 2522.24 gained. Additionally, the math assumes a perfect DPET for Frostbolt - meaning it never changes. This isn't realistic, since most raiding mages have 2 major int procs (static heroic int procs give 6.39% crit each) or a stacking int proc. Additionally, every frost mage is going to have the meta gem.

During meta gem procs, DPET of Frostbolt goes up to 117692. If we have meta + one trinket proc, it goes to 124540, and with two+ meta it goes up to 129535. So, if we're doing our FB+Icicle spam (at 40% mastery) any time we're using the 2pc on a frostbolt during Meta (which has a high uptime for Frost Mages, 30-40%), trinket procs (which are giving additional crit, raising frostbolt DPET), heroism, or really ANY proc we have (jade spirit, profession stuff, potions) this very small gap of 2455 DPS is being closed, to the point where munching one or two FoFs will completely negate the DPS you gained. It should also be noted that due to mastery only benefiting FB+icicle here, at higher gear levels when mastery is reaching 80% and higher, FB+icicle DPET is much closer between the two. At 80%, 121379 (no procs), 151319 (meta), 160124 (meta + 1 static int), 166546 (meta + 2 static int). The margin for error with these types of DPET differences between FoF-IL/FB+icicle is so small any mistakes are going to ruin your gains.

I assumed the mage was haste soft capped, and shatter capped (with suppression). If the mage isn't shatter caped, then any point of crit from these int procs (which is what drives the DPET gains for frostbolt) will not be quite as strong due to FoF IL not being crit capped yet. But it still should get you closer, since most mages are probably running very close to (if not already at) the shatter cap.
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Trelane Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:12 pm

Appreciate all the additional testing, seems like there is a consensus on FoF camping. One last note: I setup the debug version of Simcraft and noticed there is a bug in the mage module code which causes it to slightly undercalculate Icicles damage. Fixing it made camping look even less attractive.
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Frosted Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:13 pm

Appreciate all the additional testing, seems like there is a consensus on FoF camping. One last note: I setup the debug version of Simcraft and noticed there is a bug in the mage module code which causes it to slightly undercalculate Icicles damage. Fixing it made camping look even less attractive.
Did you comit -> push those changes?

Edit: I don't see any pushes. Can you link the changes you made, and where?

Also, if you have the debug log, that would be helpful too.
Trelane
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Trelane Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:03 pm

Did you comit -> push those changes?
I just made the changes locally, assumed I wouldn't have permission to push changes. This line causes a crash, although it's only caught in the debug build:

Code: Select all

mage.icicles[ i ] = icicle_states[ i ];
it should probably be:

Code: Select all

mage.icicles.push_back(icicle_states[ i ]);
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Komma
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Komma Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:32 pm

Did you comit -> push those changes?
I just made the changes locally, assumed I wouldn't have permission to push changes. This line causes a crash, although it's only caught in the debug build:

Code: Select all

mage.icicles[ i ] = icicle_states[ i ];
it should probably be:

Code: Select all

mage.icicles.push_back(icicle_states[ i ]);
I will push a bugfix for this. I don't think it undercalculates icicles though. Are you referring to some other code?

EDIT: Nevermind, you're right.
EDIT2: Fixed committed https://code.google.com/p/simulationcra ... e3bdf4adce" target="_blank
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Komma Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:51 am

Some fun with simc in the IRC channel tonight reveals two interesting results:

1. 4pc with Garry helm is in fact BiS for Frost single target
2. HWF BBoY > HWF KTT

After considering it carefully, it makes sense for the following reasons:
1. Profile is ~499K DPS. 4pc proc contributed 1.2% ~= 6K. This is more than 2 items each gaining 6 itemlevels and better secondary assignment, since all secondaries scale pretty closely at BiS. Also, shatter cap is non trivial to achieve after replacing tier pieces.
2. KTT multistrike doesn't buff pet damage, which made up 18% of overall DPS. This heavily impacts the value of KTT, despite the percentage scaling.

People looking to rank #1 on IJ may want to start considering Garry helm + 4PC as an option, assuming they have the valor to upgrade tier pieces.
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Komma Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:40 am

Random thought came to my mind this evening: What if we refreshed bombs only if only 2 ticks remain, and bloodlust/meta are about to run out?

Inserted this before frostbolt:

Code: Select all

actions+=/living_bomb,cycle_targets=1,if=talent.living_bomb.enabled&ticks_remain<=2&((buff.tempus_repit.up&buff.tempus_repit.remains<action.frostbolt.execute_time)|(buff.bloodlust.up&buff.bloodlust.remains<action.frostbolt.execute_time))
EDIT: Apparently I had a few typos when I tested this. I'll have to do it again.
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Akraen Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:32 pm

I think it's far more of an impact to beginner/intermediate players.

For my case, I've intuitively not snapshotted a bulk of the time except when using NT on multidot fights where NT cleaves (then I eat it up whenever meta procs to score more cleaves). But again, that's been an intuitive play.

I should have trusted my intuition and challenged it to be more specific-- but yeah I can agree with a conclusion like this.

People gotta be really careful about misunderstanding your 4pc research though-- that is very limited in scope and disregards things that will impact actual players on live realms: lost VP spent on other pieces that they'd have to gain again (and not spend on other pieces), as well as any non-Iron Juggernaut fight where stats that adjust cleave/dot damage are helping you but a silly little boulder is not.
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby lynx Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:52 am

I've played around with the new frost APL and made some changes to it:

Code: Select all

actions=counterspell,if=target.debuff.casting.react actions+=/cancel_buff,name=alter_time,moving=1 actions+=/cold_snap,if=talent.cold_snap.enabled&health.pct<30 actions+=/conjure_mana_gem,if=mana_gem_charges<3&target.debuff.invulnerable.react actions+=/time_warp,if=target.health.pct<25|time>5 actions+=/rune_of_power,if=talent.rune_of_power.enabled&(buff.rune_of_power.remains<cast_time&buff.alter_time.down) actions+=/rune_of_power,if=talent.rune_of_power.enabled&(cooldown.icy_veins.remains=0&buff.rune_of_power.remains<20) actions+=/mirror_image actions+=/frozen_orb actions+=/icy_veins,if=(time_to_bloodlust>160&(buff.brain_freeze.react|buff.fingers_of_frost.react))|target.time_to_die<22,moving=0 actions+=/blood_fury,sync=alter_time_activate,if=buff.icy_veins.up|target.time_to_die<18 actions+=/berserking,sync=alter_time_activate,if=buff.icy_veins.up|target.time_to_die<18 actions+=/arcane_torrent,sync=alter_time_activate,if=buff.icy_veins.up|target.time_to_die<18 actions+=/jade_serpent_potion,sync=alter_time_activate,if=buff.icy_veins.up|target.time_to_die<45 actions+=/presence_of_mind,sync=alter_time_activate,if=talent.presence_of_mind.enabled actions+=/use_item,slot=hands,sync=alter_time_activate,if=buff.alter_time.down actions+=/alter_time,if=buff.alter_time.down&buff.icy_veins.up&trinket.stat.intellect.cooldown_remains>25 actions+=/alter_time,if=buff.alter_time.down&buff.icy_veins.up&buff.amplified.down actions+=/use_item,slot=hands,if=(cooldown.alter_time_activate.remains>45|target.time_to_die<25)&(buff.rune_of_power.remains>20|buff.invokers_energy.remains>20|(!talent.rune_of_power.enabled&!talent.invocation.enabled)) actions+=/flamestrike,if=active_enemies>=5 actions+=/fire_blast,if=time_to_die<action.ice_lance.travel_time actions+=/frostfire_bolt,if=buff.alter_time.up&buff.brain_freeze.react actions+=/frostfire_bolt,if=buff.brain_freeze.react&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>2*action.frostbolt.execute_time actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.react&buff.alter_time.up actions+=/nether_tempest,cycle_targets=1,if=talent.nether_tempest.enabled&((!ticking|remains<tick_time)&target.time_to_die>6) actions+=/living_bomb,cycle_targets=1,if=talent.living_bomb.enabled&((!ticking|remains<tick_time)&target.time_to_die>tick_time*3) actions+=/frost_bomb,if=talent.frost_bomb.enabled&target.time_to_die>cast_time+tick_time actions+=/frostbolt,if=buff.tempus_repit.up&!action.frozen_orb.in_flight actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.frozen_thoughts.up&buff.fingers_of_frost.up&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>2*action.frostbolt.execute_time actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.up&(buff.fingers_of_frost.remains<2|(buff.fingers_of_frost.react>1&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>2*action.frostbolt.execute_time)) actions+=/presence_of_mind,if=talent.presence_of_mind.enabled&cooldown.alter_time_activate.remains>0 actions+=/frostbolt actions+=/ice_floes,if=talent.ice_floes.enabled actions+=/fire_blast,moving=1 actions+=/ice_lance,moving=1
1. Changed some "stack" and "up" to "react"
2. Added frostbolt priority when meta proc is up and not in AT (it is higher dpet than ice lance in single target cases).
3. Removed the frozen_orb conditional, but refined ice lance to reduce unnecessary proc munching

Before I converted "stack" and "up" to "react" these changes were a dps gain (450 secs, 25k, T16H). Obviously, the change to "react" reduced dps, but it still was above the starting point (when it was with "up").
There's another change which gains a little more dps for when using invocation. Use mana gem when doping below 20%, before invocation.
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Frosted Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:54 pm

2. Added frostbolt priority when meta proc is up and not in AT (it is higher dpet than ice lance in single target cases).
Are you sure? even with meta up, Frostbolt/icicle DPET isn't calcing higher using TCOM.

See this post, one of the later paragraphs for numbers : http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... 1153#p1153" target="_blank

You would need obscene amounts of mastery for the two to come close, well above 100%.
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby lynx Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:07 am

That's odd, as I'm pretty sure I didn't miss anything.

Assuming 50% haste and 25% crit with meta up.
FoF-IL dpet:

Code: Select all

(A0 + 0.335*SP)*1.25*4*2*AMP
FrB+Icicle dpet:

Code: Select all

(A1 + 1.5*SP)*(1+M)*(1+0.25*(2*AMP-1))*1.5*1.3/2
Since A1/1.5 ~= A0/.335 ~= 1040, solving for M:

Code: Select all

M = 3.5812 - 6.87179/(1.5 + AMP) ~= 1.05679*AMP - 0.223257
At no amplify mastery needs to be ~83.3% in order to break even. For HC WF 4/4 (1.097 amplify) mastery needs to be ~%93.5. Int procs only improve FrB+Icicle because crit is getting higher for it.
Did I make a mistake somewhere here?
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Charmander! Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:11 am

People looking to rank #1 on IJ may want to start considering Garry helm + 4PC as an option, assuming they have the valor to upgrade tier pieces.
I might give the 4pc a go next week and see how it goes, I currently hold the #2 IJ parse at 502.8K DPS. (the #1 511k has 22% tricks uptime, I'm not bitter)

When using KTT, pet damage does go down as a percentage of damage dealt. Almost every real world parse (including mine) has pet damage around 14%. Not sure if the sim is overvaluing pet damage or if BBoY really does shift that much damage into the pet.
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Re: [TC] SimC Frost APL Discussion

Unread postby Sturmcantor Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:31 am

That's odd, as I'm pretty sure I didn't miss anything.

Assuming 50% haste and 25% crit with meta up.
FoF-IL dpet:

Code: Select all

(A0 + 0.335*SP)*1.25*4*2*AMP
FrB+Icicle dpet:

Code: Select all

(A1 + 1.5*SP)*(1+M)*(1+0.25*(2*AMP-1))*1.5*1.3/2
Since A1/1.5 ~= A0/.335 ~= 1040, solving for M:

Code: Select all

M = 3.5812 - 6.87179/(1.5 + AMP) ~= 1.05679*AMP - 0.223257
At no amplify mastery needs to be ~83.3% in order to break even. For HC WF 4/4 (1.097 amplify) mastery needs to be ~%93.5. Int procs only improve FrB+Icicle because crit is getting higher for it.
Did I make a mistake somewhere here?
Your crit term is wrong assuming I'm reading it correctly. Amp crit dmg boost is additive, not multiplicative. Inputting Amp as 1.097 for HWF Bindings your crit multiplier is 2.194 when it should be 2.097. Fixing that and simplifying, treating the constant values as + 1040 SP per your math and using HWF amp value gives:

FoF IL = 3.51 * (SP+1040)
FrB+Icicle = 1.86 * (SP+1040)*(1+Mastery)

Setting equal and solving for mastery gives simply 1+Mastery = 3.5125/1.8636 ~= 1.8847, so 88.47% mastery post HWF amplification.

Looking at TheoryCraftOMatic numbers, Frostbolt agrees with doing the math by hand based on the formula. But Ice Lance is high. A non-FoF, non-Frozen, no Invocation Ice Lance with no haste, no crit, 50k sp should do 349 + .335(50000) = 17099 dmg, but TCOM is displaying it doing 20518 dmg. This difference propagates through the calculations.

Is there some 20% buff to IL not in the tooltip that I'm missing? In game numbers agree with TCOM. Which makes the breakpoint 126.17% mastery. Which is not achievable.

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