[TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

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[TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Komma Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:45 pm

A few weeks ago when I was trying to make a haste/mastery reforge graph for 19347 haste, when I put in the wrong profile by mistake. What came out was a haste/mastery reforge graph for 14242 haste instead. (http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=218" target="_blank) Let's draw up the graph real quick:

Image

We see a few things that add up wwith what we've thought. The 0 point is 14242 haste, and haste is stronger than mastery up until that point. There's a jump at -2000 haste, because of the +4 LB BP at 12043 haste with meta. There's another jump around 19K because of +3 at 18960, and +5 at 19347 with meta, but it comes after a dip.

But what's that flat line after 14242? It looks like there might even be a point that's higher than 14242 haste. Let's zoom in and add some notes to explain what I'm talking about:

Image

So it would seem that haste is equal to mastery for a good duration beyond 14242. Why is that?

The only reason I can think of is our meta gem. Frost mages enjoy a meta gem uptime of ~35%, and if you add in Bloodlust we spend >40% of of any fight under haste effects. Past 14242, the only spell that benefits from haste is Frostbolt (and evocation, I guess). When does Frostbolt stop having gains from haste?

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((2.0 base cast / 1.3 meta or lust / 1.05 raid haste buff / 1.07 frost armor) - 1) * 42500 rating per 100% haste = 15697.25445893670192735613296361
So it would seem that the "soft haste cap" is 15697. This agrees with our graph, when you consider the dots occur every 320 haste. But why does this make sense? Here are some reasons:
1. Frost spends 50-55% of any single target fight spamming frostbolt. Despite haste not affecting other spells, the largest proportion of our cast time still gains from it.
2. Frostbolt is the primary means of generating FoF procs. Frostbolt, Frostbolt icicles and FoF IL accounts for ~45% of our total damage. Maximizing frostbolt haste means maximizing FoF generation.
3. Water elemental still gains from haste. Due to the high mastery rating of 588 BiS gear, haste gives higher returns per point than mastery for the water elemental.

What happens in multiple target fights? As previous sims have shown, mastery is exceptionally strong on 2 target fights due to icicle cleave with the splitting ice glyph. However, at 3 targets or above, the power of haste scaling on multidotting starts to show, especially when using NT. By going a little over 14242 haste, you enjoy at least equal single target DPS, while also increasing DPS on fights with 3 or more targets.

So why is this interesting? As many 580+ frost mages have noticed, keeping frost under 14242 haste, crit below shatter cap, while trying to maximize mastery and avoid using intellect gems over expertise gems is really difficult. This suggests that we really don't need to worry too much about haste above 14242, because it is just as powerful as mastery until 15697.

Taking advantage of this, I have already switched the SimC default frost BiS sample profile to a 2T16H+3HWF, "secondary stat maximizing" setup. By using certain mastery/crit pieces and having more room to fill in with haste, I've been able to avoid using int/mastery gems, and the profile DPS has increased by a bit:

Image

Here's a haste/mastery reforge graph with the new profile, which is at 16065 haste. I couldn't get it any lower with gems or reforging, unfortunately. You can see the noticeable dropoff when more mastery is further traded for haste!

Image

So what's the conclusion? Here's what I'd say in a summarized format:

TL;DR: Going past 14242 GCD soft haste cap does not make mastery better than haste. Mastery is better than haste after 15697 haste.
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Komma Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:05 pm

Some folks have asked why the final graph shows that the BiS profile is 500 DPS less than some points of the graph. The reason is - the profile can't lose any more haste! Every haste gem and haste enchant has been switched out for mastery already, and haste has been reforged into mastery wherever I could. Switching any gear item seemed to lose secondaries and force me to use int/mast gems, which causes a greater loss.

Here's the profile for anyone interested. As mentioned earlier, it's actually at 16065 haste, but there's not much I could do. Feel free to suggest improvements:

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mage="2T16H_16065" level=90 race=troll role=spell position=back professions=tailoring=600/engineering=600 talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#eb!0...11 glyphs=evocation/icy_veins/splitting_ice spec=frost # This default action priority list is automatically created based on your character. # It is a attempt to provide you with a action list that is both simple and practicable, # while resulting in a meaningful and good simulation. It may not result in the absolutely highest possible dps. # Feel free to edit, adapt and improve it to your own needs. # SimulationCraft is always looking for updates and improvements to the default action lists. # Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only. actions.precombat=flask,type=warm_sun actions.precombat+=/food,type=mogu_fish_stew actions.precombat+=/arcane_brilliance actions.precombat+=/frost_armor actions.precombat+=/water_elemental actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats actions.precombat+=/rune_of_power,if=talent.rune_of_power.enabled actions.precombat+=/jade_serpent_potion actions.precombat+=/mirror_image # Executed every time the actor is available. actions=counterspell,if=target.debuff.casting.react actions+=/cancel_buff,name=alter_time,moving=1 actions+=/cold_snap,if=talent.cold_snap.enabled&health.pct<30 actions+=/conjure_mana_gem,if=mana_gem_charges<3&target.debuff.invulnerable.react actions+=/time_warp,if=target.health.pct<25|time>5 actions+=/mana_gem,if=mana.pct<10 actions+=/rune_of_power,if=talent.rune_of_power.enabled&(buff.rune_of_power.remains<cast_time&buff.alter_time.down) actions+=/rune_of_power,if=talent.rune_of_power.enabled&(cooldown.icy_veins.remains=0&buff.rune_of_power.remains<20) actions+=/mirror_image actions+=/frozen_orb,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.stack<2 actions+=/icy_veins,if=(time_to_bloodlust>160&(buff.brain_freeze.react|buff.fingers_of_frost.react))|target.time_to_die<22,moving=0 actions+=/blood_fury,sync=alter_time_activate,if=buff.icy_veins.up|target.time_to_die<18 actions+=/berserking,sync=alter_time_activate,if=buff.icy_veins.up|target.time_to_die<18 actions+=/arcane_torrent,sync=alter_time_activate,if=buff.icy_veins.up|target.time_to_die<18 actions+=/jade_serpent_potion,sync=alter_time_activate,if=buff.icy_veins.up|target.time_to_die<45 actions+=/presence_of_mind,sync=alter_time_activate,if=talent.presence_of_mind.enabled actions+=/use_item,slot=hands,sync=alter_time_activate,if=buff.alter_time.down actions+=/alter_time,if=buff.alter_time.down&buff.icy_veins.up&trinket.stat.intellect.cooldown_remains>25 actions+=/alter_time,if=buff.alter_time.down&buff.icy_veins.up&buff.amplified.down actions+=/use_item,slot=hands,if=(cooldown.alter_time_activate.remains>45|target.time_to_die<25)&(buff.rune_of_power.remains>20|buff.invokers_energy.remains>20|(!talent.rune_of_power.enabled&!talent.invocation.enabled)) actions+=/flamestrike,if=active_enemies>=5 actions+=/fire_blast,if=time_to_die<action.ice_lance.travel_time actions+=/frostfire_bolt,if=buff.alter_time.up&buff.brain_freeze.react actions+=/frostfire_bolt,if=buff.brain_freeze.react&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>2*action.frostbolt.execute_time actions+=/nether_tempest,cycle_targets=1,if=talent.nether_tempest.enabled&((!ticking|remains<tick_time)&target.time_to_die>6) actions+=/living_bomb,cycle_targets=1,if=talent.living_bomb.enabled&((!ticking|remains<tick_time)&target.time_to_die>tick_time*3) actions+=/frost_bomb,if=talent.frost_bomb.enabled&target.time_to_die>cast_time+tick_time actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.alter_time.up&buff.fingers_of_frost.react actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.react&buff.fingers_of_frost.remains<gcd # This line aims to maximize gain from short duration haste buffs, by conditionally ignoring fingers of frost. actions+=/frostbolt,if=!action.frozen_orb.in_flight&spell_haste<0.55&buff.bloodlust.remains<(2.5-buff.fingers_of_frost.stack)*8*execute_time&buff.tempus_repit.remains<(2.5-buff.fingers_of_frost.stack)*8*execute_time actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.react&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>2*action.frostbolt.execute_time actions+=/rune_of_power,if=talent.rune_of_power.enabled&(buff.amplified.up&trinket.stat.intellect.cooldown_remains=0&buff.rune_of_power.remains<20) actions+=/presence_of_mind,if=talent.presence_of_mind.enabled&cooldown.alter_time_activate.remains>0 actions+=/frostbolt actions+=/ice_floes,if=talent.ice_floes.enabled actions+=/fire_blast,moving=1 actions+=/ice_lance,moving=1 head=hood_of_swirling_senses,id=105420,upgrade=4,gems=sinister_primal_160hit_160mastery_180int,reforge=crit_haste neck=untainted_guardians_chain,id=105465,upgrade=4,reforge=hit_haste shoulders=chronomancer_mantle,id=99401,upgrade=4,gems=160exp_160mastery_160exp_160mastery_120int,enchant=200int_100crit,reforge=crit_mastery back=xingho_breath_of_yulon,id=102246,upgrade=4,gems=160exp_160mastery_60int,enchant=lightweave_embroidery_3,reforge=crit_hit chest=akoliks_acidsoaked_robes,id=105604,upgrade=4,gems=160exp_160mastery_160exp_160mastery_320mastery_180int,enchant=80all,reforge=crit_haste wrists=avools_ancestral_bracers,id=105591,upgrade=4,enchant=180int hands=chronomancer_gloves,id=99397,upgrade=4,gems=160exp_160mastery_160exp_160mastery_120int,enchant=170mastery,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii,reforge=crit_mastery waist=belt_of_ominous_trembles,id=105515,upgrade=4,gems=160exp_160mastery_160hit_160mastery_320mastery_120int,reforge=hit_haste legs=leggings_of_furious_flame,id=105516,upgrade=4,gems=160hit_160mastery_160hit_160mastery_120int,enchant=285int_165crit feet=boneinlaid_sandals,id=105493,upgrade=4,gems=320mastery_60hit,enchant=140mastery finger1=signet_of_the_dinomancers,id=105606,upgrade=4,gems=160exp_160mastery_60haste finger2=iyyokuks_hereditary_seal,id=105628,upgrade=4,reforge=hit_haste trinket1=purified_bindings_of_immerseus,id=105422,upgrade=4 trinket2=black_blood_of_yshaarj,id=105648,upgrade=4,reforge=haste_mastery main_hand=immaculately_preserved_wand,id=105594,upgrade=4,gems=160exp_160mastery_60int,enchant=jade_spirit,reforge=crit_hit off_hand=revelations_of_yshaarj,id=105650,upgrade=4,gems=80int_160mastery_60int,enchant=165int # Gear Summary # gear_strength=80 # gear_agility=80 # gear_stamina=42575 # gear_intellect=28818 # gear_spirit=80 # gear_spell_power=16509 # gear_expertise_rating=1600 # gear_hit_rating=3522 # gear_crit_rating=5218 # gear_haste_rating=14645 # gear_mastery_rating=20752 # gear_armor=18555 # meta_gem=sinister_primal # tier16_2pc_caster=1 # back=xingho_breath_of_yulon,enchant=lightweave_embroidery_3 # hands=chronomancer_gloves,heroic=1,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii # main_hand=immaculately_preserved_wand,heroic=1,elite=1,weapon=wand,enchant=jade_spirit
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby areanu Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:27 pm

It makes perfect sense, yet I'm a bit confused how to transfer this logic to Mr.Robot.

At least for me, low ilvl frost mage (573), pushing the haste cap further to 15697 leads to Mr. Robot starting ignoring socket bonuses of +120 int and going for 2x 320 haste gems.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/stormrage/areanu" target="_blank

This is very counter-intuitive and should not be right. Guess it's case-specific (bad itemization + at 15.62% hit).
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby durrtygoodz Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:55 pm

Why have you gone back to 2p?
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Komma Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:58 pm

Why have you gone back to 2p?
Cause it's better!

What I've found is that 4PC > TFP robes cause it has so much hit (forces you to use int gems) and the secondaries are unbalanced, so you lose a lot of it. Using Thok robes and Immer helm actually gives you a gain over that, since you need the crit for shatter cap anyway, and their secondaries are well balanced.
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby durrtygoodz Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:08 pm

If you've got a hit/haste overload problem you should use Toxic Treads. It's a blue socket but it's irrelevant as the +60 hit isn't needed.
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Komma Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:19 pm

If you've got a hit/haste overload problem you should use Toxic Treads. It's a blue socket but it's irrelevant as the +60 hit isn't needed.
Hrm. That's a good idea, I haven't tried that yet cause it gives less overall secondary stats compared to Bone inlaid:
Toxic Treads: http://www.wowhead.com/item=105537&upgd=4" target="_blank 1205 crit + 1499 mast = 2704
Bone Inlaid: http://www.wowhead.com/item=105493&upgd=4" target="_blank 1401 haste + 1360 mast = 2761

Might might need to adjust a few pieces, ie. use Galakras ring to balance things out.
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Komma Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:48 am

It makes perfect sense, yet I'm a bit confused how to transfer this logic to Mr.Robot.

At least for me, low ilvl frost mage (573), pushing the haste cap further to 15697 leads to Mr. Robot starting ignoring socket bonuses of +120 int and going for 2x 320 haste gems.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/stormrage/areanu" target="_blank

This is very counter-intuitive and should not be right. Guess it's case-specific (bad itemization + at 15.62% hit).
Just wanted to mention that I could not find any way of making AMR work exactly the way I wanted with 15697 crit, shatter cap, and have it use as many expertise/mastery gems as possible. It just flat out refuses to do the best optimizations sometimes, and gives me 18K haste, or 23% crit, or randomly breaks set bonuses.
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby durrtygoodz Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:43 am

areanu you don't have enough haste to get to that number without ignoring bonuses. Best I got AMR to do is 15.1k haste 15.62% hit
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby areanu Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:38 pm

Aye. Should be easier to do next week, once I swap ordos helm for hc galakras 4/4 helm + other upgrades available.
Special thanks to Komma for confirming that it's not always entirely possible to make AMR work the want I want him to work. :)

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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Kagge Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:28 pm

So i have been reading so much regarding haste caps and 4 set and so on. There is so many things told diffrently and i am getting confused on what to do. So i am asking this. Is there a better haste breakpoit to use the others or should i go for what you saying on this post? That we should stop stack hatse at 15697 and go for mastery? and gem exp-Mastery for socket bonuses with 120+ int.

I am currently in a 19347 haste spec http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/h ... e/advanced
I have http://www.wowhead.com/item=105441 and http://www.wowhead.com/item=105420/hood ... ing-senses upgraded 4 times and ofc all set pics Hc to play around with.

Bah a confused Mage need help to sort this :)
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby durrtygoodz Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:20 pm

The info pulled from simc changes every 2 or 3 days XD I don't blame anyone for being confused. Based on this I guess it's: use 2piece with 15832 haste->mastery (i know kommas figure was 15697 but may as well get the NT BP). But this will probably change by tomorrow ;)

Ultimately though when we're talking about differences of getting 1 or 2k more from gear, that's really nothing, not worth the time spent figuring it out at all. When numbers are over 500k, 2k more dps is less than 0.5%. And ofc I always want to do more damage. But trinket rng can make up 10% dps easily. Who cares what stats or set bonus you have if you get 40%+ toxic power.
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Komma Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:01 pm

So i have been reading so much regarding haste caps and 4 set and so on. There is so many things told diffrently and i am getting confused on what to do. So i am asking this. Is there a better haste breakpoit to use the others or should i go for what you saying on this post? That we should stop stack hatse at 15697 and go for mastery? and gem exp-Mastery for socket bonuses with 120+ int.
Unfortunately, that's how theorycrafting goes - we're all just trying to figure stuff out, and sometimes we get different results because we're trying to understand things differently!

Personally, you might try to interpret what I'm saying as this: "I hear lots of frost mages frown about how they can't keep haste low enough at 14242. However, I've found that it's fine until you go past 15697. Don't worry about the extra haste, just keep reforging away from hit and use exp gems if you have to."
The info pulled from simc changes every 2 or 3 days XD I don't blame anyone for being confused. Based on this I guess it's: use 2piece with 15832 haste->mastery (i know kommas figure was 15697 but may as well get the NT BP). But this will probably change by tomorrow ;)
Hah, yeah. I'd recommend getting the NT BP if you can too, for TFP and Spoils. There hasn't been too much stuff done with SimC, so it's easy to get new findings that might not agree with previous TC.
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Windofwinter Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:44 pm

The info pulled from simc changes every 2 or 3 days XD I don't blame anyone for being confused. Based on this I guess it's: use 2piece with 15832 haste->mastery (i know kommas figure was 15697 but may as well get the NT BP). But this will probably change by tomorrow ;)

Ultimately though when we're talking about differences of getting 1 or 2k more from gear, that's really nothing, not worth the time spent figuring it out at all. When numbers are over 500k, 2k more dps is less than 0.5%. And ofc I always want to do more damage. But trinket rng can make up 10% dps easily. Who cares what stats or set bonus you have if you get 40%+ toxic power.

I was trying to make the point yesterday that we might as well go for that NT cap then. Frosted pointed out there there is a dip in dps even with just that 135 haste, if i figured it out correctly it was only like 250 dps or something so id rather just use that NT breakpoint and save gold or enchants

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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Kagge Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:36 pm

Thx for all the fast feedback. so i might aswell use the crit+masery items and lower my Haste to NT breakpoint and go for Mastery? Then there is the gemming. is the int-mastery gemming more of a win then exp-mastery?

Whould apprisiate some tips from my previous post regarding my gear+gemming. I am not to good with simcraft. And yes i have used askmrrobot. it always says i should go for Exp-mastery gem but isent int-mastery a bigger dps increase?

Thx
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Kver Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:48 pm

If you used Ask Mr Robot as we told you why do you ask us what to do? If that is what AMR tells you then use it. Exp+mastery gives more total secondary stats.
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Berlinia Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:14 pm

Akraen isn't going to approve of this.
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Berlinia Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:19 pm

I have a question regarding this.
You have worked for a time on the APL using a certain gear profile. You maximized it and then happy with the results you released it. Now you compare stats again, but you are comparing them using an APL that is maximized for another gear profile. So essentially my question is, how are you sure that this analysis you have done here does account for playstyle changes due to more haste?
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Akraen Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:53 pm

Akraen isn't going to approve of this.
That's a really bad assumption. Notice how every time we more clearly resolve math/sims/etc, the haste # goes up a little bit?

This makes sense to me, but I still prefer 19347 :)

14242 was just to shut people up about gcds, the number itself never had any significance.
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Re: [TC] Is 14242 really "The Haste Cap"?

Unread postby Berlinia Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:07 pm

I meant you weren't going to approve that we don't all stack 28k haste

a.k.a it was a joke ^^

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