7.1.0 Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Guides and discussions of all things specific to the Ice Lancers of Azeroth.
Ponkster
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:27 am

Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Ponkster Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:54 am

I don't think it was "obvious" how the build plays without trying it, and since it required an artifact respec from a traditional TV build (assuming pople don't have 30+ in offspec) I thought it was beneficial to point out the deficiencies.
Anywyay, I am done with this build, and with this thread.
Way to spit your dummy out.

The build is not going to be better than fire, and guess what, most specs/classes aren't. The thread is about optimizing for this playstyle and seeing its potential. If it falls flat, then so be it.

For me it has been super fun, great for dungeons and competed quite well with other frost mages (got a top 10 parse), with a 670ilvl offspec weapon.
brookes
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby brookes Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:56 pm

Some new results:
1)Im running 5000crit/5000haste/10300 mastery lonely winter incaner flow. Im about 1,8mil average GS (crits+hits) so much better numbers then 8000crit chance with low mastery, also it deleted crit dependance a bit.
2)Somehow IF make better DPS then ROP in longer fights 4min+
3) mythic+
NL+8 and higher better results then fire since not big trash pulls
EOA- good
Never pick this build to big trash pulls in MoS and Karazan or teamates will kill you
Conclusion:
This build is the best for people like me who had unlucky 880 item drops with stats lowcrit/mastery and haste/mastery. So in fire I play 873 Ilvl and in frost 880!, so I have BETTER single target DPS in this build then in fire. So if i dont drop more fire items or legend wrists, I am going to play this build on:
NL, EOA, EN myth: Nint.(not sure in MC phase), Ursoc, Dragons, Cenarius, ToV
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Frosted
Posts: 1024
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Frosted Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:41 pm

Suggested Trinkets
I am not going to do sims for every trinket. I will suggest that Stat Sticks are king with this build. You're not creating enough actions for Proc Trinkets to always be thee best. As always sim your trinkets to confirm the best one for you. I suggest Arcanocrystal and Nightbane's Urn. Arcanocrystal at max iLvl is probably BiS considered the 860 version easily makes dps jump insanely high.
This is not a very compelling argument, and really makes very little sense. You are "creating" way more than enough actions for proc trinkets to be fine, and for rppm to function appropriately.
Rikx
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Rikx Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:24 am

This is not a very compelling argument, and really makes very little sense. You are "creating" way more than enough actions for proc trinkets to be fine, and for rppm to function appropriately.
Even though I disagree, you're right in that it shouldn't only just be based on an argument. So, I ran this just for you. Unfortunately I didn't have any stat sticks with mastery on them, so I had no idea what bonus_id to use - regardless, the stat stick with int and crit does pretty well for itself.

Edit: Updated image. 500k iterations used, latest nightly build (so it should include Aran's rppm buff)

Single Target only.

Image

Profile used:

Code: Select all

mage="860 Arcanocrystal" level=110 race=dwarf role=spell position=back talents=2123122 artifact=53:142186:133070:142186:0:783:1:784:6:785:3:786:3:787:3:788:3:789:3:791:3:792:3:793:1:794:1:795:1:796:1:797:1:798:1:1296:1 spec=frost # This default action priority list is automatically created based on your character. # It is a attempt to provide you with a action list that is both simple and practicable, # while resulting in a meaningful and good simulation. It may not result in the absolutely highest possible dps. # Feel free to edit, adapt and improve it to your own needs. # SimulationCraft is always looking for updates and improvements to the default action lists. # Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only. actions.precombat=flask,type=flask_of_the_whispered_pact actions.precombat+=/food,type=nightborne_delicacy_platter actions.precombat+=/augmentation,type=defiled actions.precombat+=/water_elemental actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats actions.precombat+=/mirror_image actions.precombat+=/potion,name=potion_of_prolonged_power actions.precombat+=/frostbolt # Executed every time the actor is available. actions=counterspell,if=target.debuff.casting.react actions+=/time_warp,if=(time=0&buff.bloodlust.down)|(buff.bloodlust.down&equipped.132410) actions+=/call_action_list,name=cooldowns actions+=/flurry,if=buff.brain_freeze.react&prev_gcd.frostbolt&buff.icicles.stack>2 actions+=/blizzard,if=buff.zannesu_journey.stack>4|buff.zannesu_journey.remains<cast_time+1&equipped.133970 actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.react>0&buff.chain_reaction.react>2&(equipped.138140|equipped.132411) actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.react>0&buff.chain_reaction.react>1&buff.rune_of_power.down actions+=/frozen_orb,if=buff.rune_of_power.down actions+=/glacial_spike actions+=/frostbolt actions.cooldowns=rune_of_power,if=cooldown.icy_veins.remains<cast_time|charges_fractional>1.7&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>38|buff.icy_veins.up|target.time_to_die.remains+5<charges_fractional*22 actions.cooldowns+=/icy_veins,if=buff.icy_veins.down actions.cooldowns+=/mirror_image actions.cooldowns+=/use_item,slot=neck actions.cooldowns+=/blood_fury actions.cooldowns+=/berserking actions.cooldowns+=/arcane_torrent actions.cooldowns+=/potion,name=potion_of_prolonged_power,if=cooldown.icy_veins.remains<5 head=hood_of_darkened_visions,id=139189,bonus_id=1806 neck=sorcerous_shadowruby_pendant,id=130233,bonus_id=1758/689/601/669,stats=1300mastery_500crit,gems=150mastery,enchant=mark_of_the_hidden_satyr,ilevel=855 shoulders=ancient_dreamwoven_mantle,id=139191,bonus_id=1502/1807 back=gossamer-spun_greatcloak,id=138221,bonus_id=1502,enchant=binding_of_intellect chest=maddening_robe_of_secrets,id=139193,bonus_id=1806 wrists=ragged_fur_wristwraps,id=139196,bonus_id=1806 hands=oiled_riggers_handwraps,id=142429,bonus_id=1502 waist=cinch_of_light,id=142411,bonus_id=3469 legs=ragged_horrorweave_leggings,id=139190,bonus_id=1806 feet=crimson_woollined_slippers,id=139195,bonus_id=1806 finger1=mindrend_band,id=138220,bonus_id=1806,enchant=binding_of_mastery finger2=shard_of_the_exodar,gems=150mastery,id=132410,enchant_id=5429 trinket1=,id=141482,bonus_id=1492 main_hand=ebonchill,id=128862,ilevel=906 copy="875 Ethereal Urn" trinket1=,id=142166 copy="845 Int/Crit Stat Stick" trinket1=,id=134204,bonus_id=3474/603/1507/1674 copy="850 Int/Crit Stat Stick" trinket1=,id=134204,bonus_id=3474/603/1512/1674 copy="865 Int/Crit Stat Stick" trinket1=,id=134204,bonus_id=3474/603/1527/1674 copy="880 Int/Crit Stat Stick" trinket1=,id=134204,bonus_id=3474/603/1542/1674 copy="860 Aran's Relaxing Ruby" trinket1=,id=142157 copy="855 Mrrgria's Favor" trinket1=,id=142160 copy="880 Swarming Plaguehive" trinket1=,id=139321,bonus_id=1806 copy="865 Swarming Plaguehive" trinket1=,id=139321,bonus_id=1805 copy="850 Swarming Plaguehive" trinket1=,id=139321,bonus_id=1807 copy="880 Wriggling Sinew" trinket1=,id=139326,bonus_id=1806 copy="865 Wriggling Sinew" trinket1=,id=139326,bonus_id=1805 copy="850 Wriggling Sinew" trinket1=,id=139326,bonus_id=1807 copy="880 Bough of Corruption" trinket1=,id=139336,bonus_id=1806 copy="865 Bough of Corruption" trinket1=,id=139336,bonus_id=1805 copy="850 Bough of Corruption" trinket1=,id=139336,bonus_id=1807 copy="880 Unstable Horrorslime" trinket1=,id=138224,bonus_id=1806 copy="865 Unstable Horrorslime" trinket1=,id=138224,bonus_id=1805 copy="850 Unstable Horrorslime" trinket1=,id=138224,bonus_id=1807 copy="880 Naraxas' Spiked Tongue" trinket1=,id=137349,bonus_id=1532:3412 copy="865 Naraxas' Spiked Tongue" trinket1=,id=137349,bonus_id=1517:3412 copy="850 Naraxas' Spiked Tongue" trinket1=,id=137349,bonus_id=1502:3412 copy="850 Devilsaur Shock-Baton" trinket1=,id=140030,bonus_id=1502:3474
Last edited by Rikx on Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Potaetoe
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:06 am

Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Potaetoe Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:35 am

Suggested Trinkets
I am not going to do sims for every trinket. I will suggest that Stat Sticks are king with this build. You're not creating enough actions for Proc Trinkets to always be thee best. As always sim your trinkets to confirm the best one for you. I suggest Arcanocrystal and Nightbane's Urn. Arcanocrystal at max iLvl is probably BiS considered the 860 version easily makes dps jump insanely high.
This is not a very compelling argument, and really makes very little sense. You are "creating" way more than enough actions for proc trinkets to be fine, and for rppm to function appropriately.
We are creating equivalent number of actors as many melee classes who also don't see benefits in RPPM trinkets. I'll agree it's probably a correlation and not causation, but stat sticks do appear to dominate this spec for trinket selection. Meaning flat stats are overall more beneficial than the chance to proc something. The fact even Devilsaur or bough aren't benefitting the build shows at least there is some reduction in proc trinket damage in this build versus Thermal Void Frost. Whether that be do to simply less chances to proc, or because over a number of iterations this build will not benefit proc trinkets is something I will concede I haven't tested.
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Frosted
Posts: 1024
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Frosted Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:43 am

Suggested Trinkets
I am not going to do sims for every trinket. I will suggest that Stat Sticks are king with this build. You're not creating enough actions for Proc Trinkets to always be thee best. As always sim your trinkets to confirm the best one for you. I suggest Arcanocrystal and Nightbane's Urn. Arcanocrystal at max iLvl is probably BiS considered the 860 version easily makes dps jump insanely high.
This is not a very compelling argument, and really makes very little sense. You are "creating" way more than enough actions for proc trinkets to be fine, and for rppm to function appropriately.
We are creating equivalent number of actors as many melee classes who also don't see benefits in RPPM trinkets. I'll agree it's probably a correlation and not causation, but stat sticks do appear to dominate this spec for trinket selection. Meaning flat stats are overall more beneficial than the chance to proc something. The fact even Devilsaur or bough aren't benefitting the build shows at least there is some reduction in proc trinket damage in this build versus Thermal Void Frost. Whether that be do to simply less chances to proc, or because over a number of iterations this build will not benefit proc trinkets is something I will concede I haven't tested.
I have a hard time believing melee don't trigger RPPM effects properly. As long as you are attempting procs at least once every 10s or so, you're going to be fine. But anyways, we are mages. Let's look at some data.

If we use spiked tongue and look at proc#:

use default sim settings,

GS- 15.8 executes
TV- 19.2 executes.

TV and GS build their gearsets differently though, so let's normalize for that and give GS the TV set. (since haste scales this RPPM effect, which is not universally true)

Normalized GS - 17.1 executes.
TV - 19.4 executes

Closer. Let's remove TV now, and use CmS.
Normalized GS - 17.1 executes
CmS - 17.5 executes

Really, has nothing to do with the # of actions. Any frost, or any caster, generates plenty of actions to adequately trigger the RPPM normalization stuff. It's just that glacial spike isn't gearing haste - and a lot of trinkets right now have haste scaling on their RPPM coefficient.


I just used the GS profile the guy above posted and the default profile for gear.
Potaetoe
Posts: 76
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Potaetoe Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:38 am

I wasn't aware of haste scaling. That makes sense. Again I was making a bad observation. I did not mean in any way to take it as fact. I'll update main post when I get a chance.
kamui
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby kamui Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:58 am

Does the trinket list include the SC's fix to Aran's Ruby's RPPM?
Imaskar
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Imaskar Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:11 am

Iamaskar:
Mastery is key here when you run 6000 mastery and less u are getting 600k GS hits and about 2mil crits-its low. You want to run 8000-10 000 mastery for 1.8 mil GS hits and 4-5 mil crits and pray for RNG crits. but for this stats you dont want to have low crit (-20 percent) low intelect or low haste (very slow casts =dps lost too). I think this build will shine at 895+ bis stats and relics.
So I want more stats, but not for expense of other stats? Bigger ilvl is the only way?
Also, comparing to Ursoc, where I switched to more mastery-oriented build, the results became worse.
Incendos
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Incendos Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:43 pm

Neck enchant? discuss please.

300 passive mastery, 550 crit/haste for 6 sec now and then or still hidden satyr?
Ponkster
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Ponkster Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:17 pm

This might sound abit mad, but with incanters flow and using the blink shatter for glacial spikes with flurry. I'm getting much better results because my spikes are critting more.

Can't do this with rune as the blink takes you out of it.
Rikx
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:21 am

Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Rikx Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:22 pm

Does the trinket list include the SC's fix to Aran's Ruby's RPPM?
Unsure. I was running a 7.1.0 release 2 build. I started running another simulation with the latest nightly build but the results are at home. I'll update later with results.

Edit: I edited the original post with an updated image.
Neck enchant? discuss please. 300 passive mastery, 550 crit/haste for 6 sec now and then or still hidden satyr?
Personally, I simmed higher with hidden satyr instead of the 300 passive mastery. I didn't try the 550crit/haste, although I wouldn't be surprised if it's lower than even the mastery enchant.
This might sound abit mad, but with incanters flow and using the blink shatter for glacial spikes with flurry. I'm getting much better results because my spikes are critting more. Can't do this with rune as the blink takes you out of it.
If I recall correctly, the thought behind not blink-shattering glacial spikes was that it just wasn't feasible in a raid setting. Else how do you get back to 40 yards-ish to make sure your frostbolts are shattering via flurry? You'd have to be using shimmer and icy floes for that kind of stuff, potentially putting them at a cooldown when you have to move for boss mechanics.
Last edited by Rikx on Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kamui
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby kamui Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:43 am

Several Questions...

1) What's the opener? Do you Frostbolt to 5 stacks before dropping RoP and IV? When do you use the first Frozen Orb?

2) When do you use Ice Lance?

3) Do you ever use Ebonbolt and Water Jet?
Lobsters
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Lobsters Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:24 am

What kind of stat balance do you guys think is good? I saw preheat using low crit with high mastery/haste, but most people say to go mastery/crit with lower haste.

In 870 ilvl I can have roughly 30 crit 20 haste 80 mastery or 26 crit 20 haste 86 mastery. Anyone know what the ideal stat balance would be?
Potaetoe
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Potaetoe Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:42 am

Several Questions...

1) What's the opener? Do you Frostbolt to 5 stacks before dropping RoP and IV? When do you use the first Frozen Orb?

2) When do you use Ice Lance?

3) Do you ever use Ebonbolt and Water Jet?
The opener is frostbolt to 5 stacks, drop RoP if you're using it, IV, and then glacial spike.

Only use Frozen Orb when rune of power is down, you should be filling RoP with Frostbolts and Glacial Spikes.

You don't use Ice Lance unless you have both a FoF proc and 1 stack of Chain Reaction when RoP isn't available.

Ebonbolt may be a dps increase in the prepull, when I put it in the profile it wasn't so I haven't changed it sense then.

You put Water Jet on auto. No need to micromanage FoF procs. You just kinda let them happen.
What kind of stat balance do you guys think is good? I saw preheat using low crit with high mastery/haste, but most people say to go mastery/crit with lower haste.

In 870 ilvl I can have roughly 30 crit 20 haste 80 mastery or 26 crit 20 haste 86 mastery. Anyone know what the ideal stat balance would be?
You want Master > Crit > Int ~= Haste ~= Verse on a generic level. always sim yourself for an accurate set of weights.

Crit has a stronger impact, typically, than haste. But both are good stats.

With what you've stated I'd go with 86 mastery/26crit/20 haste. But again, simming yourself using the profile is a stronger detail of what's good.

Just as an example, if I was to use my own mastery gear I end up with like 30 crit/26 haste/ 60 mastery. But that's because I don't have a good mix for Mastery/Crit heavy gear.
Rikx
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Rikx Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:04 am

Latest PTR has Frostbolt going to 195% spellpower from 210%, and Glacial Spike going to 1000% from 750%.

Rough napkinmath ahead:

Assuming 100 spellpower (i.e. frostbolt will do 195 damage instead of 210),

50% mastery = 1275 (old) to 1487.5 (new)
100% mastery = 1800 (old) to 1975 (new)

If numbers hold true, overall a buff but mastery won't be as important. Still possibly #1 stat.
Razlopp
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Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Razlopp Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:21 am

Hello,

Just wanted to stop by and post an APL improvement.

Code: Select all

actions.precombat=flask,type=flask_of_the_whispered_pact actions.precombat+=/food,type=nightborne_delicacy_platter actions.precombat+=/augmentation,type=defiled actions.precombat+=/water_elemental actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats actions.precombat+=/mirror_image actions.precombat+=/potion,name=potion_of_prolonged_power actions.precombat+=/frostbolt # Executed every time the actor is available. actions=counterspell,if=target.debuff.casting.react actions+=/time_warp,if=(time=0&buff.bloodlust.down)|(buff.bloodlust.down&equipped.132410) actions+=/call_action_list,name=cooldowns actions+=/flurry,if=buff.brain_freeze.react&prev_gcd.frostbolt actions+=/blizzard,if=buff.zannesu_journey.stack>4|buff.zannesu_journey.remains<cast_time+1&equipped.133970 actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.react>0&buff.chain_reaction.react>2&(equipped.138140|equipped.132411) actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.react>0&buff.chain_reaction.react>2&buff.rune_of_power.down actions+=/frozen_orb,if=buff.rune_of_power.down actions+=/glacial_spike #actions+=/frozen_orb actions+=/frostbolt
Changed so you only use ice lance at 3 stacks of Chain Reaction.

this provided about 500+~ DPS. Might be able to get more out of the APL still.

Image
fungames22
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:39 pm

Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby fungames22 Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:45 am

What did they do to my build last patch? I am pulling subpar numbers:(

idk what they did but I got 40K dps worth of gear upgrades and I am pulling 100K-150K less dps with this build? wtf??? Something feels strange, but there are no patch notes. I even improved my rotation to not use icelance during RoP. I use to spike to 1.5M+ in opener sometimes, and a minimum of 1M, now I barely hit 500-700K... huh?
Nanogiant
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:31 pm

Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby Nanogiant Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:31 pm

What did they do to my build last patch? I am pulling subpar numbers:(

idk what they did but I got 40K dps worth of gear upgrades and I am pulling 100K-150K less dps with this build? wtf??? Something feels strange, but there are no patch notes. I even improved my rotation to not use icelance during RoP. I use to spike to 1.5M+ in opener sometimes, and a minimum of 1M, now I barely hit 500-700K... huh?
They took 8% haste away from us. My casts are now super slow.

Just feeling very disappointed atm. I have finally found a spec I really enjoyed and now I'm being nerfed into oblivion.
lamilambkin
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:26 pm

Re: Glacial Spike T19M Profile and Spec Explanation

Unread postby lamilambkin Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:35 pm

What did they do to my build last patch? I am pulling subpar numbers:(

idk what they did but I got 40K dps worth of gear upgrades and I am pulling 100K-150K less dps with this build? wtf??? Something feels strange, but there are no patch notes. I even improved my rotation to not use icelance during RoP. I use to spike to 1.5M+ in opener sometimes, and a minimum of 1M, now I barely hit 500-700K... huh?
They took 8% haste away from us. My casts are now super slow.

Just feeling very disappointed atm. I have finally found a spec I really enjoyed and now I'm being nerfed into oblivion.
Frost mages as a whole lost 8% haste? i raided heroic en Tuesday night (nov 15th) and noticed no crazy difference. Can you provide a link?

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