Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Guides and discussions of all things specific to the Ice Lancers of Azeroth.
Engrom
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Engrom Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:16 pm

Xinder what do you think abaut no one use head in method exorsus etc. guilds? Every one progressing 2pct19 4pct20 bracer+shard.
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Falq
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Falq Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:57 pm

That's prob because if you have nicely procced pieces of T19 it's still BiS. It's very hard to tell because not everyone get 925 T19 piece, that's why some sims may tell you that Head is better than 6 PC but if you get nicely procced T19 pieces it will be different for you and head will fall behind Id say
Xinder
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Xinder Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:28 pm

It is probably what Falq is saying. I also have seen reports that on fights like Avatar, the helm bugs out and doesn't cast all the comets on Avatar when it procs. Only ends up casting one. So you don't get the same value as you would normally.
Magiatus
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Magiatus Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:42 pm

@Thingy

Any chance the BiS trinkets and build sims list will get updated anytime soon?
Since the GS nerf and most frostmages still playing TV, it might still be usefull for a 7.2.5 updated list

Thanks
thingy
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby thingy Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:26 pm

That's beyond the scope of this guide. The guide was written aimed at new players to TV in order to inform them how to play. I previously linked to Frosted's sims based on the default profiles he and others came up with as a resource, but I had no intention of putting them in this guide. I do intend on putting in a couple of tidbits dealing with T20 bonuses, but like I said this is more of a startup guide than anything so I won't be putting up sims for relics, trinkets, tier combinations, etc.
Katsumi
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Katsumi Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:38 am

Check out the Top Gear option on raidbots.com - best/easiest/quickest way to get sims for your own trinkets, based on the gear you're wearing. Just install the simcraft addon, copy&paste your current gear and alternatives in your bags with ./simc, plug it into raidbots and select all your trinkets for comparison. Takes about a minute in total.
natehonkers
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby natehonkers Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:50 am

Do we still precast Ebonbolt with T20 Twopiece? Or use Frostbolt into Orb and then ebonbolt during the buff?
broedrost
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby broedrost Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:19 pm

Do we still precast Ebonbolt with T20 Twopiece? Or use Frostbolt into Orb and then ebonbolt during the buff?
I found better results doing the second option.

prepot->frostbolt->frozen orb->icy veins->spend procs->ebonbolt->flurry
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Falq
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Falq Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:15 pm

Do we still precast Ebonbolt with T20 Twopiece? Or use Frostbolt into Orb and then ebonbolt during the buff?
I found better results doing the second option.

prepot->frostbolt->frozen orb->icy veins->spend procs->ebonbolt->flurry
hmm I find that using EB -> Flurry -> IL is close to impossible during Orb because you always always get FoF proc during Ebonbolt -> Flurry cast since it takes so logn and orb keeps ticking. What I found best is Prepot -> Frostbolt -> Frozen orb -> CDS -> Ebonbolt, in this case you also fire you Ebonbolt while having 5 stacks of Incanter's flow and you dump procs at this point.
natehonkers
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby natehonkers Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:20 pm

Do we still precast Ebonbolt with T20 Twopiece? Or use Frostbolt into Orb and then ebonbolt during the buff?
I found better results doing the second option.

prepot->frostbolt->frozen orb->icy veins->spend procs->ebonbolt->flurry
hmm I find that using EB -> Flurry -> IL is close to impossible during Orb because you always always get FoF proc during Ebonbolt -> Flurry cast since it takes so logn and orb keeps ticking. What I found best is Prepot -> Frostbolt -> Frozen orb -> CDS -> Ebonbolt, in this case you also fire you Ebonbolt while having 5 stacks of Incanter's flow and you dump procs at this point.
doing this you will still waste the fof generated by orb while doing eb -> flurry -> lance - so no difference to what broed said
no idea whats optimal either the question was just if eb precast or not (id say no.)
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Falq
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Falq Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:28 pm

Ofc it will, point was to use IF stacks and time burst around it. There is difference because single EB hits harder than IL and you always fire it @ 5 IF stacks if possible. If you can't dump all FoF stacks for Flurry -> IL combo, and you do as I said (FB -> Orb -> EB) you will always fire EB at 5 IF stacks. If you have enough haste you can also start dumping your IL at around 5-4 stacks of IF for maximum efficiency.
Karbuncle
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Karbuncle Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:42 pm

Okay got a fairly straight forward question here:

I'm TV spec and have 4-piece T20 with Shard and Bracers. I can have 6-piece if I put on back and shoulders, but I lose 2 average item levels in the process:

Back goes from a 910 to an 890.
Shoulders go from a 905 to an 890.

Is it still worth getting 4+2 going?
Xinder
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Xinder Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:51 pm

Okay got a fairly straight forward question here:

I'm TV spec and have 4-piece T20 with Shard and Bracers. I can have 6-piece if I put on back and shoulders, but I lose 2 average item levels in the process:

Back goes from a 910 to an 890.
Shoulders go from a 905 to an 890.

Is it still worth getting 4+2 going?
Sim yourself is the best answer. It's very possible the 2PC + 4PC combo will sim higher, mine does and the replacements are higher ilvl swings than your example.
Karbuncle
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Karbuncle Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:53 pm

Will do. I wasn't sure if Simming takes into account set bonuses.
Xinder
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Xinder Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:01 pm

Will do. I wasn't sure if Simming takes into account set bonuses.
Sims wouldn't be worth it if they didn't properly account for set bonuses. So yes, sim away without fear.
Karbuncle
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Karbuncle Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:03 pm

Cool just did. Turns out the difference is 3.5k dps in favor of 4+2. Not a whole lot better, but still it's technically better.
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alpacapacino
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby alpacapacino Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:48 am

one thing i disagree with is not tracking IF, not shimmer-lancing (learning how to properly use it will give you gains and no matter how slight thats what separates a good frost mage vs a bad one), not having more uptime on chain reaction just means you're not very good.

TV is already very boring at times with having to sit there and spamming frost bolt after frost bolt because you're simply not having good rng. Why make it even more boring and also not utilizing aspects of your spec that will be a dps gain?
Katsumi
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Katsumi Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:57 am

Then let's finish that thought.

Say you're tracking IF and CR, so you can now see at all times where your stacks are at. What do you do with that information? The only choice you have that's technically worth a DPS gain would be to hold FoF procs until you reach high stacks of IF or CR or both. However, doing that also means you're running the risk of either munching an IL proc (in case you get a BF proc and chose to spend the IL) or running the risk of missing out on a potential BF proc (if you're not using the BF proc immediately). Both options reduce any potential gains that you might get from playing around the procs. Given how important BF procs are for T20 4p I don't see a case where you ever want to risk missing out on one.

Secondly, shimmerlancing made some sense under the old system. Even then it was very risky to spend a shimmer stack for two extra seconds of IV. Under the new system, it's nonsense for all practical purposes. Imagine getting caught by a mechanic without a stack of shimmer because you've just invested it for an extra second of IV and some damage. Congratulations, you now have to run for two seconds to get out of shit and are welcome to cast non-critical ice lances because you've just blown everything else.

Running that kind of risk during serious encounters is a much stronger indicator that you don't know what the f''' you're supposed to be doing. Dark Legacy Comics (#587) was very much on point on this one.
Last edited by Katsumi on Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Makz
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby Makz Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:42 pm

Given how important BF procs are for T20 4p I don't see a case where you ever want to risk missing out on one.
Agree with all, just wanted to add that T20 4pc reduces FO cd even if you munch a BF proc(so getting a BF proc while having BF) or at least it did on one of the latest PTR builds I played for ToS.
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zulgohlan
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Re: Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

Unread postby zulgohlan Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:08 pm

Completly agree, shimmer is most of time too important to waste it for a IL (not even under IV)

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