Guide to Thermally Voiding your Enemies in 7.2.5

[Katsumi]

Given how important BF procs are for T20 4p I don't see a case where you ever want to risk missing out on one.

Agree with all, just wanted to add that T20 4pc reduces FO cd even if you munch a BF proc(so getting a BF proc while having BF) or at least it did on one of the latest PTR builds I played for ToS.

Really? Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to check that myself.

[Magiatus]

That's beyond the scope of this guide. The guide was written aimed at new players to TV in order to inform them how to play. I previously linked to Frosted's sims based on the default profiles he and others came up with as a resource, but I had no intention of putting them in this guide. I do intend on putting in a couple of tidbits dealing with T20 bonuses, but like I said this is more of a startup guide than anything so I won't be putting up sims for relics, trinkets, tier combinations, etc.

You are indeed correct. I thought it was this post with all the sim data, but I was mistaken.

[thingy]

I've been retracing some replies here and I wanted to add some input to the opener with T20. Sims are pretty funky when it comes to pre-combat so it's not easy to find the best way to do an opener. I've been doing this:

Frostbolt -> IV (during travel time) -> FO -> Frostbolt (during Frozen Orb travel time) -> Procs -> EB -> BF -> IL

Depending on the situation (lust on pull/positioning concerns), I also try to throw in a shimmerlance after the BF proc from EB.

The important part is making sure that you land the shattered Ebonbolt during Frozen Orb's duration for the increased crit percentage. I would definitely munch an FoF to do it. It's also worth noting that this is decent for the 2pc, but even better for the 4pc. If you opened up with EB it would feel very bad reducing Frozen Orb's CD by 5 seconds when it's not on CD to begin with. You do take a chance to proc BF with the 1st pre-casted Frostbolt, but it's better than losing out on a 100% proc reducing 5 secs on Frozen Orb's CD.

I guess the only other options would be to pre-cast a hardcasted Flurry or Frozen Orb? Neither seem like great options compared to Frostbolt considering it's our filler spell that can lead to more damage during Frozen Orb (CR, FoF, BF, Icicles, etc).

[Xinder]

I've been retracing some replies here and I wanted to add some input to the opener with T20. Sims are pretty funky when it comes to pre-combat so it's not easy to find the best way to do an opener. I've been doing this:

Frostbolt -> IV (during travel time) -> FO -> Frostbolt (during Frozen Orb travel time) -> Procs -> EB -> BF -> IL

Depending on the situation (lust on pull/positioning concerns), I also try to throw in a shimmerlance after the BF proc from EB.

The important part is making sure that you land the shattered Ebonbolt during Frozen Orb's duration for the increased crit percentage. I would definitely munch an FoF to do it. It's also worth noting that this is decent for the 2pc, but even better for the 4pc. If you opened up with EB it would feel very bad reducing Frozen Orb's CD by 5 seconds when it's not on CD to begin with. You do take a chance to proc BF with the 1st pre-casted Frostbolt, but it's better than losing out on a 100% proc reducing 5 secs on Frozen Orb's CD.

I guess the only other options would be to pre-cast a hardcasted Flurry or Frozen Orb? Neither seem like great options compared to Frostbolt considering it's our filler spell that can lead to more damage during Frozen Orb (CR, FoF, BF, Icicles, etc).

Thanks for the reply and insight thingy! When are you coming back to TV and away from GS or do you think there's a certain gear ilvl where GS just wins out to TV assuming 33% crit for both sets of gear?

[thingy]

Currently I don't think so now that they "fixed" GS. They're both still pretty close in numbers, but TV is definitely slightly ahead (and easier to play).

[Xinder]

Currently I don't think so now that they "fixed" GS. They're both still pretty close in numbers, but TV is definitely slightly ahead (and easier to play).

I would agree. I've found the same. I actually sim 20k lower now on GS where as before their "fix" I was 20k higher with GS and proper gear. Feels kinda shitty.

[zulgohlan]

With 4t20 i think i go on precast EB > IV+orb > flurry > IL spam and fb > last tick insta blizz

Btw does the dmg of the owl scale with anything or is improved by anything? Or just try to use it during high haste uptime?
I simed a 915 with my current gear and actually it only tops 910whisper a few k, my burst goes up around 200k in the start but allinall doesnt seem like that great against my old hisper ... (usage must have been simmed otherwise mastery wouldnt top whisper and burst wouldnt go up)

[nickseng]

With 4t20 i think i go on precast EB > IV+orb > flurry > IL spam and fb > last tick insta blizz

Why precast EB if you're not gonna shatter it?

[zulgohlan]

With 4t20 i think i go on precast EB > IV+orb > flurry > IL spam and fb > last tick insta blizz

Why precast EB if you're not gonna shatter it?

Wana get it asap rdy again for flurry ad too long cast to use it under orb

[dreets]

With 4t20 i think i go on precast EB > IV+orb > flurry > IL spam and fb > last tick insta blizz

Why precast EB if you're not gonna shatter it?

Wana get it asap rdy again for flurry ad too long cast to use it under orb

definitely not maximizing your dps by opening this way. especially with t20 2/4pc

[Crayon]

I've been retracing some replies here and I wanted to add some input to the opener with T20. Sims are pretty funky when it comes to pre-combat so it's not easy to find the best way to do an opener. I've been doing this:

Frostbolt -> IV (during travel time) -> FO -> Frostbolt (during Frozen Orb travel time) -> Procs -> EB -> BF -> IL

Depending on the situation (lust on pull/positioning concerns), I also try to throw in a shimmerlance after the BF proc from EB.

The important part is making sure that you land the shattered Ebonbolt during Frozen Orb's duration for the increased crit percentage. I would definitely munch an FoF to do it. It's also worth noting that this is decent for the 2pc, but even better for the 4pc. If you opened up with EB it would feel very bad reducing Frozen Orb's CD by 5 seconds when it's not on CD to begin with. You do take a chance to proc BF with the 1st pre-casted Frostbolt, but it's better than losing out on a 100% proc reducing 5 secs on Frozen Orb's CD.

I guess the only other options would be to pre-cast a hardcasted Flurry or Frozen Orb? Neither seem like great options compared to Frostbolt considering it's our filler spell that can lead to more damage during Frozen Orb (CR, FoF, BF, Icicles, etc).

The only issue I have with not doing the old Ebonbolt>IV is the potential damage due to good RNG. Sometimes (on single target) my orb produces more FoF procs than I can use inside of the 10 sec orb buff, which in this case the old opener does significantly more damage(time wasted casting Ebonbolt during buff and munching FoF). I think the frosbolt opener and shattering Ebonbolt within the buff may be more consistent damage but in terms of min/max is lower depending on orb FoF RNG.

Of course there are those times where we only get 1 FoF during orb

Another note, pre casting a flurry seems a bit pointless because a non BF flurry doesn't give the winters chill debuff for shatter

[thingy]

I'll take consistency over high variance most days.

I only added in flurry there to cover bases because there's really not much else in the toolkit we could pre-cast. When we were using BC there was talk of it because it stacks BC, but it was never really worth it anyways.

[Crayon]

I'll take consistency over high variance most days.

I only added in flurry there to cover bases because there's really not much else in the toolkit we could pre-cast. When we were using BC there was talk of it because it stacks BC, but it was never really worth it anyways.

For sure, and I love LW just because im not a fan of the pet, I liked when it was a 3 min CD lol

[Syntek]

Hey I'm rather new to PVE frost mage since I just came back and decided to take my nearly exclusive pvp mage as a my new main.

I'm rather unsure if I should switch SI and FT regularly or just keep SI all the time. Is there any guideline for the ToS raid? Same question for UM and AG.

Your guide helped me a lot to clear up some things (especially the Icelance directly after BF has upped my dps a lot since I just didn't knew that).
Thanks a lot for doing this.

[Nyrilla]

I'm rather unsure if I should switch SI and FT regularly or just keep SI all the time. Is there any guideline for the ToS raid? Same question for UM and AG.

Personally I keep SI & AG all the time. It's kind of annoying and expensive to change talents between fights, so given that the outputs of those talents even on ST are ok, I just stay like that. And I think kind of the majority of frost mages do the same.


Considering the opener :

Frostbolt -> IV (during travel time) -> FO -> Frostbolt (during Frozen Orb travel time) -> Procs -> EB -> BF -> IL

I was wondering something : Would it be possible, at max range, to cast FO just after the Eb + BF combo ? Do the spells benefit from the damage increase if they reach the target after the FO is cast ? Haven't tested yet, just asking...

[broedrost]

I, too, keep SI all the time but I switch regurarly between AG & UM

[Quorgyle]

I've seen quite a lot of different opinions on the last 2 pages. Like people suggesting not to shatter ebonbolt and similar stuff. Everyone can try to be a hero on forums, but do you guys have proof those rotations and strategies work? I'd like to see some logs that prove these theories. Especially people still suggesting shimmerlance, can't imagine using my shimmer for stuff like that instead of boss mechanics, Fallen Avatar comes to my mind atm, how valuable shimmer is on a fight like that.

[Xinder]

I've seen quite a lot of different opinions on the last 2 pages. Like people suggesting not to shatter ebonbolt and similar stuff. Everyone can try to be a hero on forums, but do you guys have proof those rotations and strategies work? I'd like to see some logs that prove these theories. Especially people still suggesting shimmerlance, can't imagine using my shimmer for stuff like that instead of boss mechanics, Fallen Avatar comes to my mind atm, how valuable shimmer is on a fight like that.

Thingy is who wrote this thread. He raids in a top guild at a mythic level. I think he's qualified to say something and have it have some value. As for the opener and shimmerlancing. He's not encouraging shimmerlancing all the time you can, he's only talking about it in the window of the opener that he suggested. The opener of frost has always been flexible even before this and what he's saying is just how he feels gets the most benefit out of the 4pc T20

Considering the opener :

Frostbolt -> IV (during travel time) -> FO -> Frostbolt (during Frozen Orb travel time) -> Procs -> EB -> BF -> IL

I was wondering something : Would it be possible, at max range, to cast FO just after the Eb + BF combo ? Do the spells benefit from the damage increase if they reach the target after the FO is cast ? Haven't tested yet, just asking...

A few posts back in this thread or maybe in a different thread Norriner pointed out that frost is unique in that our spells don't benefit from bonuses until they land. Meaning in your specific example, if your Frozen orb is launched before the EB > Flurry impacted the target, it would benefit from the 2pc T20 bonus crit dmg.

[Syxx]

I have every legendary. Are there any fights in Tomb of Sargaras where the belt should be used?

[Quorgyle]

I've seen quite a lot of different opinions on the last 2 pages. Like people suggesting not to shatter ebonbolt and similar stuff. Everyone can try to be a hero on forums, but do you guys have proof those rotations and strategies work? I'd like to see some logs that prove these theories. Especially people still suggesting shimmerlance, can't imagine using my shimmer for stuff like that instead of boss mechanics, Fallen Avatar comes to my mind atm, how valuable shimmer is on a fight like that.

Thingy is who wrote this thread. He raids in a top guild at a mythic level. I think he's qualified to say something and have it have some value. As for the opener and shimmerlancing. He's not encouraging shimmerlancing all the time you can, he's only talking about it in the window of the opener that he suggested. The opener of frost has always been flexible even before this and what he's saying is just how he feels gets the most benefit out of the 4pc T20

I didn't even mean Thingys post but these:

one thing i disagree with is not tracking IF, not shimmer-lancing (learning how to properly use it will give you gains and no matter how slight thats what separates a good frost mage vs a bad one), not having more uptime on chain reaction just means you're not very good.

TV is already very boring at times with having to sit there and spamming frost bolt after frost bolt because you're simply not having good rng. Why make it even more boring and also not utilizing aspects of your spec that will be a dps gain?

With 4t20 i think i go on precast EB > IV+orb > flurry > IL spam and fb > last tick insta blizz

Btw does the dmg of the owl scale with anything or is improved by anything? Or just try to use it during high haste uptime?
I simed a 915 with my current gear and actually it only tops 910whisper a few k, my burst goes up around 200k in the start but allinall doesnt seem like that great against my old hisper ... (usage must have been simmed otherwise mastery wouldnt top whisper and burst wouldnt go up)

With 4t20 i think i go on precast EB > IV+orb > flurry > IL spam and fb > last tick insta blizz

Why precast EB if you're not gonna shatter it?

Wana get it asap rdy again for flurry ad too long cast to use it under orb

Thingy obviously explained how he shatters his Ebonbolt, with shimmer.