Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Freeze

Guides and discussions of all things specific to the Ice Lancers of Azeroth.
Speller
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Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Freeze

Unread postby Speller Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:22 am

Dear forums,

I literally made this account just to post this question because I looked above and beyond and couldn't find a definitive answer to what to prioritize when you have multiple procs at the same time for FoF and Brain Freeze (except the now outdated "it is generally preferred to spend FoF procs before following with a FB -> BF -> IL combo). This - I believe, is outdated advice.

There are three distinct scenarios:

1) (Easy scenario?) You are in the middle of casting Frostbolt with no active procs. You finish casting Frostbolt and immediately start casting another. You see a BF proc from your previous Frostbolt and simply follow up your Frostbolt cast with a BF -> IL combo.

2) (Tough one!) You are in the middle of casting Frostbolt - there are no active procs. You finish casting Frostbolt and immediately start casting another. You see both a FoF and a BF proc come up. Now you have two options:
- follow up with BL -> IL and munch the FoF proc, or
- cast IL after Frostbolt, and then follow up with FB -> BF -> IL in the next round. What do you do in this case?

3) (Easy?) You are in the middle of casting Frostbolt - there are no BF procs but your Blizzard or Frozen Orb is churning away which is creating FoF stacks while you cast. At the end of the cast you finish up your FoF procs with ILs (even if that Frostbolt procs BF) and then follow up with Frostbolt (and a BF -> IL combo if the previous one had procced BF).

I think (1) and (3) are easy (and the way it should be done from what I can tell). But (2) is complicated - basically if you know you have a BF proc lined up for next cast along with FoF procs lying on the side, what do you do? Even more complicated is whether you cast Frozen Orb when you have a BF proc knowing that you might need to munch the FoF procs generated by Frostbolt. Does IV/Bloodlust/etc. affect this? WELP - I'M CONFUSED :D
Pewboom
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Pewboom Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:57 am

In case 2 you just go with Frostbolt>BF>IL and munch the FoF proc since if you go with the Frostbolt-IL->Frostbolt>BF>IL you could munch other procs coming from the 2 Frostbolt casts as they could proc either FoF or BF again :D
subtlexgaming
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby subtlexgaming Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:21 pm

In case 2 you just go with Frostbolt>BF>IL and munch the FoF proc since if you go with the Frostbolt-IL->Frostbolt>BF>IL you could munch other procs coming from the 2 Frostbolt casts as they could proc either FoF or BF again :D
Is this confirmed or simmed? I've seen some top mages casting the ice lance and going back into Frostbolt > Flurry > Ice Lance. I figured it was because of double IL nerf or the nerf to t19 2p. Not as many flurry procs so less chance of munching.
Speller
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Speller Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:46 pm

In case 2 you just go with Frostbolt>BF>IL and munch the FoF proc since if you go with the Frostbolt-IL->Frostbolt>BF>IL you could munch other procs coming from the 2 Frostbolt casts as they could proc either FoF or BF again :D
Is this confirmed or simmed? I've seen some top mages casting the ice lance and going back into Frostbolt > Flurry > Ice Lance. I figured it was because of double IL nerf or the nerf to t19 2p. Not as many flurry procs so less chance of munching.
Yes - I am more inclined to agree with those logs because if those 2 Frostbolt casts proc FoF they are not wasted. Flurry has a much lesser chance of being munched (especially if you are not running 2pT19). I wish someone with some elite SimCraft knowledge would simulate these priorities.
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Norrinir
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Norrinir Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:56 pm

Added this line right before Flurry, which should model the 2) scenario.

Code: Select all

actions.single+=/ice_lance,if=prev_gcd.1.frostbolt&buff.brain_freeze.react&variable.fof_react>0&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>10
Attachments
il_first.png
il_first.png (3.04 KiB) Viewed 18832 times
Workingbob
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Workingbob Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:37 am

So I believe the answer to question number 2 depends on weather you have taken thermal void or not, and if you have IV up or not. I believe that if you have IV currently up as in you have used it and have the buff still, with the talent TV you should go about it like you previously did, as in FB -> IL -> FB -> flurry -> IL This is because of the impact of IV that being said I also think if you currently have Frozen orb out you should also continue casting like stated above this is because you can cap out FOF charges and and up losing FOF procs during the T20 2pc. Outside of that it is a harder question. Outside those circumstances I think if you are using the legendary bracers you would also still want to go with the old rotation, and if you are using the legendary helm you would want to go with FB -> Flurry -> IL and just munch the fof proc. Regardless this would be very minimal min maxing and I think you can still go with the old proc consumption rotation if you wished to.
Speller
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Speller Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:11 pm

Ok - so can we summarize what we have so far as follows:

Unless you have a buff (such as IV) or gear (such as legendary bracers) that directly benefit from casting Ice Lances - it's generally better to ignore the FoF and continue your usual rotation with FB -> BF -> IL.

Would this be an accurate statement for now?
Vyro
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Vyro Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:55 am

The Methodguide for Frost-Mages tells u to munch the FoF proccs in that case...
I mean those guys should now...

https://www.method.gg/guides/frost-mage ... d-rotation
Timelord
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Timelord Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:10 am

The Methodguide for Frost-Mages tells u to munch the FoF proccs in that case...
I mean those guys should now...

https://www.method.gg/guides/frost-mage ... d-rotation
I doubt it. Did you see the opener section in that guide?
It depends on the situation since there are so many factors that affect IL damage multiplicatively, esp. if you have the bracers. The only downside to using the FoF proc first is if the next FB also procs a BF (or FoF). Also, with even one or two buffs up (corcordance/frozen mass/bracers/chain reaction), IL does more damage than BF. IMO, always pop IL.
Vyro
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Vyro Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:57 am

Yeah the opener seemed weird to me aswell.
So I tried to find some information here and I found something, some people argue that you should get the gain reaction going by casting frostbolt first.
Seems like the whole rotation section is a big mess this patch...

The thing that comes to my mind is....
With the 4 pc t20 you reduce the cooldown of the Orb for every proc u get so it makes sense to me to "make" space for another proc and then when the Orb is out you use the 10 sek window to throw out what u got (use the IL that u get with the Orb right away)
With the tarnished sentinel Owl it makes even more sense to shoot out what u got as fast as possible...
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Norrinir
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Norrinir Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:50 pm

The Methodguide for Frost-Mages tells u to munch the FoF proccs in that case...
I mean those guys should now...

https://www.method.gg/guides/frost-mage ... d-rotation
I doubt it. Did you see the opener section in that guide?
It depends on the situation since there are so many factors that affect IL damage multiplicatively, esp. if you have the bracers. The only downside to using the FoF proc first is if the next FB also procs a BF (or FoF). Also, with even one or two buffs up (corcordance/frozen mass/bracers/chain reaction), IL does more damage than BF. IMO, always pop IL.
Feelycraft doesn't count. Provide numbers to back up your statement.
Inuyasu
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Inuyasu Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:19 am

If i have icy veins active i will use the ice lance then flurry combo. I feel like maintaining IV (especially losing out on the extra brain freeze procs when you switch tier sets) with those 2 frozen ice lances is more important at the time. When out of IV getting as many frostbolt crits as possible to get IV back up takes priority over the ice lance damage, and with BF being a guaranteed 2.5+ seconds off IV i munch the fof.

That's how i deal with that but what it all really comes down to is rng. Could work out in your favor once or you could get screwed the next 5 frostbolt casts.
Joenas
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Joenas Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:43 pm

The thing that comes to my mind is....
With the 4 pc t20 you reduce the cooldown of the Orb for every proc u get so it makes sense to me to "make" space for another proc and then when the Orb is out you use the 10 sek window to throw out what u got (use the IL that u get with the Orb right away)
With the tarnished sentinel Owl it makes even more sense to shoot out what u got as fast as possible...
I tested this yesterday, if you don't consume your BF proc and you get a new one while it's up you still get the 5 second reduction from the 4 piece bonus.
callMeEars
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby callMeEars Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:30 pm

I've seen very good parses from people doing both things and rikh always gets good logs and he actually cancels the fb cast to use the ice lance price to avoid munching.

I think the difference between all 3 options is incredibly minor and I think the more important thing is to think about mobility and how many instant casts you will need in the next x seconds. For example if you munch an ice lance proc you lose out on 1 instant cast gcd whereas if you use this first you will still have the brain freeze proc available for another 2 gcd of movement.

Unfortunately I can't back this up with anything but I really think for the sake of these debates mobility concerns will be a bigger difference to your damage than the actual damage difference from choosing proc do you munch in a standstill and nuke scenario.

Not sure why I never see anyone mention mobility in these discussions (because shimmer op?) but I think it should be the main concern.
Katsumi
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby Katsumi Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:04 am

Added this line right before Flurry, which should model the 2) scenario.

Code: Select all

actions.single+=/ice_lance,if=prev_gcd.1.frostbolt&buff.brain_freeze.react&variable.fof_react>0&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>10
So basically, either way is fine. While IL first produces a marginally lower (0.2%, which is negligible) mean, it seems to be more consistent. For practical purposes I'd make the decision dependent on movement requirements.

Thanks for the sim.
thingy
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby thingy Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:03 pm

You have to keep in mind that this decision only really needs to be made during the cast of a Frostbolt. If you aren't casting a frostbolt (say because you had to move) it's 100% correct to clear out your FoF procs before starting to Frostbolt->BF->IL again.

As for cancelling casts it's technically a dps loss to cancel a cast since you've invested time into something and essentially got nothing out of it. Is it a big loss? Well I guess that depends on how often you do it and how fast you cancel the cast. I know I've cancelled a cast the instant I started it (so with latency + reaction time maybe .2-.3 seconds?) in order to use the FoF proc first. I definitely try to avoid cancelling casts though. Norrinir simmed cancelling casts at .5sec in order to use procs and it ended up being a loss.

I really don't want to re-visit sims vs reality, but yes you should take sims with a grain of salt because they are generally done without movement and mechanics thrown in. Whenever you see a sim that results in less than 1% of a difference it likely doesn't matter terribly much in the grand scheme of things. They do add up, however, from a min-maxing perspective. Am I suggesting playing however you want regardless of what the sims say? Of course not. I'm just saying you need to analyze the results of sims and how they effect your decisions in-game.
burningstar
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby burningstar Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:31 am

Seems the better way to look at it is potential lost dps. If you have a BF and FoF proc and are casting frostbolt, casting BF -> IL afterward will ALWAYS result in a munched proc. If you use the FoF after you are not guaranteed to lose a proc. So using BF proc always results in a lost IL, whereas using FoF first may not.
nickseng
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby nickseng Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:31 am

Seems the better way to look at it is potential lost dps. If you have a BF and FoF proc and are casting frostbolt, casting BF -> IL afterward will ALWAYS result in a munched proc. If you use the FoF after you are not guaranteed to lose a proc. So using BF proc always results in a lost IL, whereas using FoF first may not.
You're not factoring in the fact the BF Flurries also allows your frostbolt to crit, and activates FV and CR.
burningstar
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby burningstar Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:58 am

I realize it does that, but what's the difference? BF proc is like 30%? So if you lose 3 IL casts is that more or less than the 1 extra BF proc with frostbolt crit, FV, and CR?
nickseng
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Re: Definitive guidance on how to spend FoFs w/wo Brain Free

Unread postby nickseng Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:27 am

I realize it does that, but what's the difference? BF proc is like 30%? So if you lose 3 IL casts is that more or less than the 1 extra BF proc with frostbolt crit, FV, and CR?
And how do you determine this value? Just by feeling?

Simc has tested both, over thousands of iteration. Prioritizing BF over IL is when forced is generally a dps increase (although small).

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