Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Guides and discussions of all things specific to the Ice Lancers of Azeroth.
Locumire
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:57 pm

Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby Locumire Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:45 am

Hey guys --

I main a fire mage but have been playing around with frost recently just for a late xpac change of scenery. And I'm terrible at it.

I'm usually a blue-purple parses in fire but for some reason it's a good fight if I get green in Frost.

Here are some logs (I'm Locumire), I did every fight except for Argus as Frost:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qk31GxYP4XwVtNyF

In an LFR today I tried weaving a Frostbolt into the Brain Freeze procs to Shatter the Frostbolt and while things seem slightly better they still aren't taking home any medals:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KpqdQAh7xDawWyXB

Any thoughts on how I can improve?
DiabolisCZ
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby DiabolisCZ Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:20 am

I just had a quick look. The biggest issue a see is that at most of you kills you missplaced or missed BL completely. This is huge dps loss for everybody. Fix basics before going for the more advanced stuff.
Locumire
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:57 pm

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby Locumire Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:34 pm

Thank you so much for taking a look for me!

I assume BL means Blizzard here? I didn't realize you were supposed to use it on ST as well as AoE (got into the Flamestrike frame of mind). I assume you only use it with Frozen Orb so you get an instant cast?

Really appreciate you taking the time.
nickseng
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:52 am

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby nickseng Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:55 am

Thank you so much for taking a look for me!

I assume BL means Blizzard here? I didn't realize you were supposed to use it on ST as well as AoE (got into the Flamestrike frame of mind). I assume you only use it with Frozen Orb so you get an instant cast?

Really appreciate you taking the time.
BL == Bloodlust.

And no, no blizzard on ST
Locumire
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:57 pm

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby Locumire Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:06 am

Ah, of course.

I'm an alliance scrub so I'm used to it being called hero and that really threw me -- sorry!

Going through old logs today it does seem like even with weird TWs I usually do fairly well when I'm playing fire but perhaps that's just familiarity with the spec.

If no one sees anything completely egregious that I'm doing I guess it's just a matter of practicing more!

Thank you so much for reading/responding.
DiabolisCZ
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby DiabolisCZ Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:16 am

Sry I didn't think BL would not be understood. For the Horde! :)

The second think I noticed is that you don't use potions! Again another huge dps loss.

Rotation wise there are few mistakes:
- always pair frozen orb and icy veins
- after ebonbolt always cast flurry and ice lance
- brain freeze procs should be consumed in following way*: frostbolt -> flurry -> ice lance

* exception when you are using insta-casts during movement

Hope this helps and good luck.
wisco007
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:08 pm

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby wisco007 Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:49 pm

Hi Locumire!

These are small points, but maybe they can help:

Assuming you have DBM, on pull I pre-pot at 4 sec, and start casting ebon at 3. IV, ice lance, and orb to follow.

On a few of your pulls, at the start it looks like ebonbolt is hitting at 3-4sec mark which seems late. And, if you look at the "events" i can see the ebonbolt on pull hits before any flurry hits. DiabolisCZ is spot on, there needs to be a spell cast prior to using the brain freeze proc (because the flurry travels slower than our other spells), you must cast frostbolt or ebon prior to using brain freeze proc to max dps, otherwise the proc has only partial benefit from Winter's Chill from the non-frozen fingers ice lance cast . When casting ebonbolt, the flurry is guaranteed. So cast ebonbolt, and hit flurry right after cast, and we mean immediately after (it's 100% to proc), so the ebon or frost bolt benefits from the Winter's Chill debuff on the enemy. This will be true for all brain freeze procs.

I don't mean to be patronizing, but i never understood the effect completely until reading it in this way for in combat order (items in ** are automatic): *brain freeze proc*, use all finger of frost procs, cast frostbolt, hit flurry right before end of frostbolt proc, *flurry snowballs hit enemy*, *winter's chill debuff on enemy*, *frostbolt hits enemy(crit)*, cast ice lance, *ice lance hits enemy(crit)*,... This is the how and why of frost/ebonbolt>flurry>ice lance. This order is the essential way to optimize dps.

Hopefully, not too long winded!
Locumire
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:57 pm

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby Locumire Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:06 am

@DiabolisCZ
Oh, I still absolutely should have gotten that! I was so ready for fancy frost acronyms I jumped the gun. Ahahahah.

@wisco007
Not too long winded, or patronizing at all, I really appreciate the thoughtful answer! I came here for advice :)

---

It's really embarrassing that I forgot to pre-pot ahahah. You guys have no idea how helpful you have been, I really appreciate it. The frostbolt into flurry on a brain freeze alone has been huge.

I have a few other questions:
- Do I cast Ebonbolt in Icy Veins if it comes up?
- Should I also be doing Frostbolt -> Ice Lance when I get a Fingers of Frost proc or do I dump all FoFs as I get them? If I weave the Frostbolt in and I'm about to overcap on Fingers of Frost Procs (as often happens with Frozen Orb up) do I dump Ice Lances until I can start Frostbolting again without munching procs? It seems like with TV and the Bracers I would want to be getting every IL out as soon as possible.

Thanks again, these detailed responses have already been super useful!

(Now if only I could actually see the animation for Ice Lance in a hectic fight so I stop mashing the button for ten seconds)
DiabolisCZ
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby DiabolisCZ Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:59 am


I have a few other questions:
- Do I cast Ebonbolt in Icy Veins if it comes up?
Sure, no need to delay it. I am generally casting Ebonbolt as soon as its up.
- Should I also be doing Frostbolt -> Ice Lance when I get a Fingers of Frost proc or do I dump all FoFs as I get them? If I weave the Frostbolt in and I'm about to overcap on Fingers of Frost Procs (as often happens with Frozen Orb up) do I dump Ice Lances until I can start Frostbolting again without munching procs? It seems like with TV and the Bracers I would want to be getting every IL out as soon as possible.
No, you are trying to weave frostbolts as much as possible (for brain freeze procs and chain reaction). Only if you have 3 procs of FoF and frozen orb is active (i.e. generally aoe scenario or you are very lucky) you can dump 2 FoF at one. More frostbolts cast > more brain freeze + higher chain reaction up-time > more ice lance dmg.

Of course we are talking about standing still situation. If you are moving and cannot you shimmer you should be using all your instant casts. Some dmg > no dmg.
Cindrine
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:16 pm

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby Cindrine Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:18 pm

This post was SO helpful! I didn't know that you were supposed to weave your Ice Lances in with the Frostbolts. I found this post while I was in LFR, so I tried it and it threw me to the top of the meters, around 2mil dps, from 1.5.

But where do those Flurries belong?
Deaminase
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:59 pm

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby Deaminase Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:14 pm

I didn't know that you were supposed to weave your Ice Lances in with the Frostbolts.

I am pretty sure that you're not supposed to weave in Frostbolts between Ice Lances if you have multiple FoF procs since you risk munching a FoF proc if you get BF. I always dump all of my FoF procs as soon as possible. I'll go through all the basic scenarios and hopefully that will answer your question (and hopefully someone can correct me if I'm wrong).

Scenario 1: No procs

Chain cast Frostbolt until you get a proc.

Scenario 2: You have 1+ FoF proc(s) (but no BF proc)

After your next Frostbolt cast Ice Lance(s) to dump all of your FoF procs

Scenario 3: You have a BF proc (but no FoF procs)

When your next Frostbolt cast finishes, cast Flurry --> Ice Lance

Scenario 4a: You have BF and FoF procs and you are not currently casting Frostbolt

Cast Ice Lance --> Frostbolt --> Flurry --> Ice Lance

Scenario 4b: You have BF and FoF procs and you are currently casting Frostbolt

In this case you want to munch the FoF proc, so you will allow the currently casting Frostbolt to finish, then cast Flurry --> Ice Lance
DiabolisCZ
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Please Help a Fire Mage who can't do Frost

Unread postby DiabolisCZ Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:10 pm

Regarding (not) weaving frostbolts there are several aspects to be considered. I think it was discussed here several times and actual dps difference was shown to be minimal. You are, of course, right that munching procs is bad. However there are reasons for casting as much frostbolts as possible:
1. chain reaction uptime
2. reduction of cd on icy veins
3. BF procs

In the end its about assessing your current situation. Do you have full stack of chain reaction and magtheridon with proced concordance and 5 stacks of IF? Sure cast as much of proced IL as possible. You have no chain reaction stack and you sit on 1 stack of IF? Weave frostbolt and hope for not munching procs.

It's never black or white and you should track your cds and procs and adapt your gameplay to your current situation. And that's not talking about fight specifics like varimathras on mythic where you need to save your procs for ads and so on. Finally you need a bit of luck (did concordance proced during opener or not?) for good parses.

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