Frost Talents, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinkets, FAQ

[Rythlock]

Hi Guys!

I have an important question about trinkets. I know theres a link on the first page, but its still updated? I mean I have 3 trinkets: Shards of nothing (mythic 685), DMF trinket upgraded 3/3, Copeland's clarity (665). I think Shards + DMF3 will be the best choice or am i wrong? Tyvm the answer.

[Wilderness]

Shards/DMC

[Rythlock]

Shards/DMC

Thank you sir!

[Frosted]

OP Updated for the 1/12 changes.

Racials shifted around a bit, and Haste is now pretty much always best after MS.

"Met" is CmS.

[Seprest]

Q5 ) What is the best weapon enchant?

A5 ) Frostwolf! Shattrered Hand got nerfed twice, removing it from its place as top enchant.

Why is the haste enchant so much lower than others, is this figure updated? The stat weights reflect the change but this does not. Talent builds with MI or PC will increase the value of haste relative to multistrike (UM as well). There is even one build you simmed that shows haste overtaking MS. Given that the haste enchant gives more of its rating than the MS enchant does, it is easy to imagine that the enchant is actually better than the MS enchant. I don't have sims on this laptop while on vacation, but entering custom values into AMR from your table gives an avg +50 total score when using the haste enchant.

[Frosted]

This is the updated one - same results.

There are only 2 I see at a quick glance with haste > MS. (Fbomb/UM_MI_PC). The enchant sims are done with IN_RoP_PC.

As for AMR, they do something to procs (I think they convert them all into a flat average rating bonus). So it's possible for those 2 combinations to look in AMR like you should be using warsong.

If you're running one of those minority haste > MS specs,



Which isn't surprising. I'll have to update that question though, since I had not noticed that haste > MS stuff when I first clicked through the results.

EDIT:

Looking into it more, it's basically just sitting right below a jump in haste value (not sure why. Potential breakpoint for PC). So haste just looks so high in those profiles because of the breakpoint effect. it's not actually always haste > MS

[TheGreyPaladin]

I saw the updated simulationcraft runs with the new haste values Komma ran

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/Ko ... Bonus.html" target="_blank

and it looks like on his sims now Comet Storm is better than TV at least paired with IN and MI?

I thought I had read Comet Storm was almost never worth taking and the front page of this thread reflects that I think.
Is this because of the new hast buff or?

[Frosted]

The OP in this post has the updates. The difference between my runs and Kommas is that Komma uses BRF gear, I use highmaul gear. Komma also had forgotten to use glyph of IV on some of his profiles, resulting in different results than what I produced.

[Seprest]

haste just looks so high in those profiles because of the breakpoint effect. it's not actually always haste > MS

Thank you for the quick and detailed update! This is really the #1 guide for one of the most played class/specs in the game.

[TheGreyPaladin]

Yep thanks for the quick response and it looks like Komma's stuff is updated also - thanks Frosted and Komma for all your excellent work!!!

[Raggamasta]

Can somebody tell me why I get higher single target dps with IN/MI/TV (32963 dps) compared to IN/MI/PC (32458 dps).

IN, MI, TV profile: http://pastebin.com/EPUpB96v" target="_blank
IN, MI, PC profile: http://pastebin.com/iZsGgFCU" target="_blank

Simcraft settings were:
- Iterations: 50 000
- Length: 450 sec
- Fight style: Patchwerk
- Num Enemies: 1


If this is not a simcraft error, then should I be using TV instead of PC all the time? Sounds a bit weird, but according to sim results it's a 500 dps increase.

[Frosted]

You don't have IV or Splitting Ice glyphed. A lot of the bonus damage from PC comes from Splitting Ice.

[Raggamasta]

You don't have IV or Splitting Ice glyphed. A lot of the bonus damage from PC comes from Splitting Ice.

Thanks, this was indeed the problem. I was playing fire for Tectus and forgot to change glyphs when importing profiles from askmrrobot to simcraft.

[Petfood101]

IN_RoP_PC is better for single target even if we use mythic shards? I'm just wondering if the haste would make MI pull ahead.

And between mythic shards, hc runestone and dmf trinket (670) what would be the best combination? I know according to sims its runestone+shards but i'm just curious if the dmf proc will help during the burst phases.

[AcidBaron]

How accurate is the trinket bis list currently?

Thanks in advance

[Frosted]

Trinkets are updated for the haste changes.

[Faenya]

So I've read some of these stats on RoP and PC being better than TV. I havent really sat there and recorded my fight numbers, and I've also recently got some big upgrades so it's hard for me to track number comparisons from before, but I wonder how accurate simm'ing things are like this.

In theory, I always thought PC would be better, and then switched to TV because someone suggested it, and my dps increased. Again, I got several big upgrades when also switching to TV, so I'll probably run some things in LFR later to test in game numbers. The problem with PC, and then throwing ROP on top of it, is that it all takes extra time to set up in game. Not only are you setting up 4 procs of FFB and IL for crystal, but then you're also trying to avoid mechanics while properly placing RoP (and hoping the boss never has to be pulled out of PC for any reason). I cant imagine this being a dps increase on fights like twins, particularly on Mythic.

[Frosted]

So I've read some of these stats on RoP and PC being better than TV. I havent really sat there and recorded my fight numbers, and I've also recently got some big upgrades so it's hard for me to track number comparisons from before, but I wonder how accurate simm'ing things are like this.

In theory, I always thought PC would be better, and then switched to TV because someone suggested it, and my dps increased. Again, I got several big upgrades when also switching to TV, so I'll probably run some things in LFR later to test in game numbers. The problem with PC, and then throwing ROP on top of it, is that it all takes extra time to set up in game. Not only are you setting up 4 procs of FFB and IL for crystal, but then you're also trying to avoid mechanics while properly placing RoP (and hoping the boss never has to be pulled out of PC for any reason). I cant imagine this being a dps increase on fights like twins, particularly on Mythic.

You're either not using splitting ice, or are playing poorly when using PC. There are no major flaws with the sim with regards to PC (in fact, it's currently being under-valued a bit in sims by a minor bug).

How do you think the sim operates? When the sim takes PC and RoP, it has to cast those abilities just like you do. It has to wait for procs like you do. We can force it to have to handle mechanics like you do (movement). Robomage has to play by the same rules you do in terms of cast mechanics / procs.

The argument for PC on twins just depends on how good you are. If you're good at staying on top of your CDs, and can ensure FO ticking during PC, there is no reason it cannot perform well.

[Faenya]

I dont know how the sim works. I dont know if the sim knows the exact mechanics of the fight (say, fire is going to come out around the same time your PC is going to come off CD). So rather than use your CD's as soon as you can, you need to wait for a particular phase etc in order to execute properly, or you'll definitely do poor numbers blowing cooldowns in a movement intensive phase. I think sims are excellent to give you an idea of stat values, and what you can do on stationary fights, but I think number crunching for 1k dps increases on a patchwork sim and then saying it's better than something that has almost no variability (TV) in fights where there are a lot of variables/movement/timing with cooldowns is a hard point to make.

I appreciate all of the research though, because I dont have the inclination to do all of that, so I'm glad someone does. And without it, there's no arguments to even be had. It seems these forums replaced the old EJ forums, so at least there's somewhere to look. After coming back to WoW after years hiatus, I couldnt find any mage info for a while.

[Frosted]

So the default sim doesn't assume any fight mechanics, we have to tell it to (and really, you can break down fire to just "movement"). So you can do the sims with movement events at certain intervals, for a certain duration. But the default sims don't do that. I don't include movement in the sims I have in the OP mainly because they are meant to serve as a sort of "general guide" for people to start from.

In regards to TV and PC though, movement probably hurts TV more than PC. For PC, you are always syncing it with FO, banking 1x IN, and having hopfully also banking 1x BF. So you have 3 guaranteed globals that you can cast while moving, without any issue. You also have FO ticking on 3 targets, so the odds of you continuing to generate FoF procs to dump into PC is pretty good. This is actually how one of my PCs usually ended up syncing up while doing mythic. It'd come right as a quake would, and I'd FO/PC and just GCD FoF-ILs into PC while dodging fire. TV on the other hand requires you to be able to cast for a longer than 10.5s period. So anything interrupting movement during that time once FO is down is going to hurt your IV extension, and therefore TV.

RoP though I definitely agree. Default sims are certainly overvaluing them in comparison to in-raid performance for all but the best players and Butcher (which is 100% patchwerk).